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Old 11-22-2010, 12:54 PM   #43
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I used my hornet spay to repel a bunch of ground wasps, I suppose it would work on people too.
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Old 11-22-2010, 01:51 PM   #44
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howdy vic,
thank you for the expert advice... One of my fellow officers lost his nose in a simulated house search, when a rookie got 'antsy'... He could have lost his eyes or life, luckily he was sideways...
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Old 11-22-2010, 01:55 PM   #45
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I don't carry a spare tire but I do own a hand gun.

These threads always reenforce my view that RVers are among the most heavily armed group in the country and I think that is niether good nor bad.

I come from a line of LEOs from a large metro area and while growing up, always had it beaten into my head that I was much more likely to have my gun used on me or involved in an accident than I was to have it provide critical protection. In earlier threads on this topic I learned that MANY LEOs feel differently. I don't know if that's a function of the changing times or different demographics, ie rural vs metro... but I certainly respect those opinions.

In reading through this thread, two things in particular come to mind:

1) I think it's being way too harsh on LEOs to feel that only 2/3 of them are "up to the job" because they can never return to active duty following an officer involved shooting. We can beat our chests all we want and brag about our guns being bigger than their guns but none of us know what it will do to our souls to kill another human being until it happens.

2) If I did a lot of boondocking in areas where LEO was very limited I'm sure I would feel differently about getting a permit to carry but we don't stay in those places and I don't feel the need. For some of those who do, it just seems to me that it must demand a tremendous amount of their time and energy to keep track of and control over all that they feel they need to be prepared. Some have said that if your gun is locked, then you are not prepared. Others talk of the gun they have holstered next to the drivers seat in the coach... the one in the glove box of the toad... and the one with the laser sight that tucks into their waist band. Considering that a loaded firearm should be treated with a great deal of care, it just must consume a tremendous amount of time and energy to keep all of this "safe" and under control. I can only think this comes from a VERY high level of concern (I won't call it fear) that their lives are going to be threatened.

But, we've all had different life experiences and are shaped by different values and that's what makes it all go round and round! We're probably lucky that after >800 nights on the road we can't recall having anyone even annoy us very much .... much less threaten our lives.

Rick
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Old 11-22-2010, 02:29 PM   #46
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We covered an area larger than Rhode Island with 7 officers and one sergeant with usually no more than 2 on duty at any given time and usually 100 miles apart. If we needed help a close backup from a park ranger or deputy sheriff was usually at LEAST 30 minutes and usually closer to an hour
And right THERE is one of the BEST reasons to at least be PREPARED to protect yourself, because more often than not, YOU yourself are likely to be the only one to be counted upon to do so!

We - and I'm sure there are many like us - predominantly RV camp in remote wilderness type areas - and while there have been no weapon related incidents in our RVing adventures, there HAVE been several incidents involving the drunken partiers and red-neck "let-it-all-hang-out" sorts that usually ruin a stay for others in the CG.

YUP - those of us who are critical of those who ruin our stay have the ready option to simply leave, but there is always the potential for these incidents to quickly turn ugly, either for ourselves, or others in the CG. And without communication to the outside world - no cell phones usable in these areas - we are left to strictly protect ourselves, if protection is needed!

And that doesn't even begin to cover the 4-legged predators, or the more determined roaming criminal types wandering around looking for easy targets and pickings - those "vertical" snakes mentioned further above...
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Old 11-22-2010, 05:19 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Vic Maris View Post
I am going to post this just to get everyone thinking about the ramifications. Law enforcement officers go through a great deal of training in this stuff. So I am posting this just to get everyone else thinking a little deeper into the subject.

So, you have obtained a firearm and you have attended training. Hopefully, it will be real world training as has been suggested. (I am all for as much training as possible.)

You have given the subject careful consideration. You have locked your weapon up so it does not fall into the wrong hands. You watch your surroundings and get out of dangerous sitituations before they escalate.

But now someone breaks into your motorhome with the intent to rob you or hurt you. You unlock your firearm. You identify that they are indeed an intruder and not a friend or your spouse you mistake for an intruder at night. But the guy continues to close in on you and you are really in danger. You warn him to leave immediately or you will shoot. So you give him the opporunity to leave. He continues to close (not a lot of room in a rig).

So you point to the center of mass (we call this K5 since that is the name of the circle in the center of the target) and you double tap (fire twice). You shoot for the center since most shots often miss. Now depending on the firearm and other factors, the suspect may continue to act as if he has not been hit. It may take several rounds. Law enforcement officers are trained not to tunnel vision on the suspect. You also consider the background. You do not want to fire at someone when there is a child right behind him. That kind of thing. You need to take a lot more into consideration than the bad guy. Training really helps here.

Now when the police arrive you need to consider what you say.

1. He broke into my motorhome which was locked.
2. He approached me and threatened me.
3. I told him to leave and warned him if he did not I would shoot in self defense
4. I shot to "stop" (not to kill).

Now if you appear reasonable and you were in fact protecting yourself against great bodily harm, I would think you would not be prosecuted, but that will depend on the jurisdiction and the DA. But the family of the victim can still sue you. What you say, what you do, your past, everything can come up in their civil lawsuit. You could lose everything. So you need to think about all of this when you decide the carry. You need to think in advance what you will say should you ever be forced to protect yourself or your family.

There is more to consider. Are you smart or stupid? Do you have a bumper sticker that reads "protected by Smith and Wesson" or something like that? Do you really want to give those who are suing you that kind of ammunition?

Of course you are using lethal force and will most likely kill him. Are you ready to live with that?

It is not like the movies. Officers are rarely involved in lethal gunfights. This is a very big deal. When officers are involved in lethal incidents they all get counseling. This is rather old and dated info but at one time it was that about 1/3 of them emerge from the situation relatively okay, 1/3 have to spend some time working with a counselor to overcome what they did or what happened and 1/3 have to quit working in law enforcement altogether. No one wearing a badge takes this lightly.

Now on the other side, when no other alternative exists, lack of action can also get you killed. So I like the real world or tactical training. The most important training I offered my officers was simunition training where we would actually get hit with dummy rounds and when we did it hurt. In the real world, many officers have been hit with non lethal rounds and have given up or hesitated until it was too late. During my training, I watched this happen to most of my officers the first time they ran through the course. The second time, they took action as need to defend themselves. I realized I may be saving the life of one of my cohorts. It was far more effective than target shooting.

There is so much I could write on this subject. I hope this helps to get everyone who has not served either in the armed forces or law enforcement to consider more than just getting a gun for safety. There is a lot to consider just as there is nothing more important than protecting those you love. Being prepared emotionally and having a plan of action cannot be over emphasized.

Here is hoping that the only time you ever have to clear leather is on the range.

Vic Maris

This is very interesting and thank you very much. Any other retired law enforcement persons that can also chime in and give advice to us regarding carrying weapons in our MH's and using them for personal safety while traveling ?? this would be very helpful information....
PLEASE....
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Old 11-22-2010, 05:36 PM   #48
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Very interesting Vic. Lot's to ponder...
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:31 PM   #49
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[QUOTE=RickO;739585].......1) I think it's being way too harsh on LEOs to feel that only 2/3 of them are "up to the job" because they can never return to active duty following an officer involved shooting. We can beat our chests all we want and brag about our guns being bigger than their guns but none of us know what it will do to our souls to kill another human being until it happens. ......

Well said Rick. Let's consider for a moment what our society would be like if all law enforcement officers were completely unaffected by taking the life of another individual, no matter what the circumstance. That would be one scary police force. It is not the force we have or would want. It is one thing to listen to talk radio, watch a lot of action films and think you have it all figured out. But none of that is real.

Every LEO has accepted an awesome responsibility and each one feels he or she can do the job. But one never knows what it is like until it happens. It is far outside the normal experience of everyday life. And these are not limited to guns. I remember getting a crisis counselor for one of my officers who witnessed a serious lethal accident involving a woman with two of her children present. He did everything he could to save her. It was no use. He needed help in coping. He went on to be a terrific and capable officer. He was no woose, he was human. If that incident would have led to him having to find some other employment, I would have thought no less of him.

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Old 11-23-2010, 07:34 AM   #50
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It's all nice to think of avoidance but since the guns, rifles and pistols are already in your motorhomes you need to practice. Often. When you're being jumped all of a sudden you will not have time to take aim, especially with a shotgun or rifle. Way back in boot camp, we practiced what they then called QUICK KILL. We used BB guns to shoot small diameter disks thrown at random and in every direction. There's no time to place your weapon to your shoulder or to take conventional aim. It was a simple technique. I'm right handed. Holding your BB gun with both hands Slide your left hand forward along the barrel with your index finger extended. When it comes time to shoot, point your BB gun with your forward hand. Just like you're pointing at a tree. You will hit your target. Try it without a BB gun. Point at anything with your arm extended. You will always be dead center on the object. BB's are cheap and relatively safe with common sense. Your wife or husband can do the tossing of the disks for you. You will surprise yourself how often you hit the disks especially when you think of how inaccurate BB guns are supposed to be. Practice often to make it instinctive. No, it's not the same as shooting skeet.

Conventional target practice doesn't match up with protecting yourself in your motorhome or up close. Conventional target practice is for hitting the enemy at 500 meters before he sees you, well maybe not with a shotgun.

Now, I do have a shotgun and a rifle which is carried in the motorhome. They're locked up. I only have them to keep my wife quiet about us being attacked.? I don't tell her that. All I imagine is coming back from a nightly pee and being blasted by "mistake" when I return to bed.
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:32 PM   #51
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[QUOTE=Vic Maris;739813][QUOTE=RickO;739585].......1) I think it's being way too harsh on LEOs to feel that only 2/3 of them are "up to the job" because they can never return to active duty following an officer involved shooting. We can beat our chests all we want and brag about our guns being bigger than their guns but none of us know what it will do to our souls to kill another human being until it happens. ......

When we hire someone to protect us we want a Wyatt Earpp not Richard Simmons. There didn't seem to be a problem when they turned Rodney King into an instant millionair that cost the taxpayers a bunch. My statement was that 1/3 should have never passed the screening for the job in the first place. I am not being critical of law enforcment, but I expect them to do the job that they were hired to do and not to expect attaboys. For some reason some jobs expect admiration for doing what they were hired to do. If I got killed doing my job how many gun salute do you think I would get ? Thanks to all Americans for doing their jobs and being unsung everyday heros. These are the people I admire. I also want to thank all the LEO's for their insight on weapons. It certainly gave me many points to ponder. I do not want to offend anyone, this is just how I feel, misguided or not
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Old 11-23-2010, 05:32 PM   #52
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[QUOTE=Chuck 1935;740109][QUOTE=Vic Maris;739813]
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickO View Post
.......1) I think it's being way too harsh on LEOs to feel that only 2/3 of them are "up to the job" because they can never return to active duty following an officer involved shooting. We can beat our chests all we want and brag about our guns being bigger than their guns but none of us know what it will do to our souls to kill another human being until it happens. ......

When we hire someone to protect us we want a Wyatt Earpp not Richard Simmons. There didn't seem to be a problem when they turned Rodney King into an instant millionair that cost the taxpayers a bunch. My statement was that 1/3 should have never passed the screening for the job in the first place. I am not being critical of law enforcment, but I expect them to do the job that they were hired to do and not to expect attaboys. For some reason some jobs expect admiration for doing what they were hired to do. If I got killed doing my job how many gun salute do you think I would get ? Thanks to all Americans for doing their jobs and being unsung everyday heros. These are the people I admire. I also want to thank all the LEO's for their insight on weapons. It certainly gave me many points to ponder. I do not want to offend anyone, this is just how I feel, misguided or not
chuck,
someone else asked you a question about your signature ''pvt e1 retired''. i did not see your answer. what's the skinny?
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:15 PM   #53
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:37 PM   #54
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[QUOTE=DAN L;740255][QUOTE=Chuck 1935;740109]
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Originally Posted by Vic Maris View Post

chuck,
someone else asked you a question about your signature ''pvt e1 retired''. i did not see your answer. what's the skinny?
Also RAY, sorry I missed this.

In the town that I live in they list your wifes name and your occupation in our local phone book. Sooo, having a bizzare sense of humor, for my occupation, I put Pvt E1 Retired, which of course is the lowest rank you can have in the service. What I find interesting is that I only got one call in 40 years asking what was the deal. When I explained it to him why I done it,we had a good laugh. This is the first time since being on this forum that anyone has asked. I find that very surprising that we have so many military on here and no one ever asked .
The real fact that is that I was drafted in 1958 and ultimatly recieved an Honorable discharge. I was one of one of the fortunate ones that never saw any action while in the service. So thats my story. I never screwed up in the service and got busted to that rank. Nothing that interesting. Fact is I pretty much see the humor and ironey in everything and love my life and know how lucky I am.
Thanks for asking !
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:58 PM   #55
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I knew E1 was the lowest rank as we all started there, and it would be next to impossible to retire at that rank, so I figured it was for a laugh.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:09 PM   #56
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