Utilization of Weaponry

[Vic Maris]

I am retired Law Enforcement (25 years) where, among other things I was a firearms instructor. Training is essential in my opinion. But training is not everything. Nothing really prepares anyone for getting into a real confrontation with firearms involved. I appreciate and agree with the comments made here about being aware of your environment and getting out of obviously bad situations. Descretion is the best plan of action. Drawing a firearm can quickly escalate a situation. We would never draw a firearm unless we were ready to use it. Much better to consider this the absolute last approach. Backing down and getting away is probably the best plan of action in most situations. So by all means, get the training, store it safely and make sure it cannot fall into the wrong hands. Many people are injured or killed each year when kids find weapons that are not locked away as they should be. Be careful out there.

Vic Maris

[WOODYDEL]

Seems you might not have looked at my suggested sites so here is the Thunder Ranch presentation on Box O' Truth's site which is not so easy to find.:

Educational Zone #61 - Thunder Ranch, Defensive Shotgun Class - Page 1

And again here is the Thunder Ranch site where you can get real life experience to defend yourself not target practice.:

Thunder Ranch
Thunder Ranch® Oregon

Additionally, if you take the time to run through the Box O' Truth site you will KNOW not just guess what your particular weapon can do. You will also find out why you might want to avoid using your weapon.

Take the time to look it over. It's worth the effort.

[wa8yxm]

Originally Posted by Ray,IN

I've used my primary weapon many times. When I get an uneasy feeling I get away from the situation. That weapon_ common sense and awareness of surroundings.

I have to agree.. The mind is a powerful weapon if you bother to take the time to learn how to use it.

Many, Alas far too many, do not.. "Stuff" happens and they do the deer-headlights thing.

My Wife is like that,, Stuff happens I'd be better off if she were elsewhere because rather than doing something she's more likely to get in my way.

(Though not a weapon situtation. I had to "move her" just yesterday) First thing SCREAM...

The old TV show Star Trek.. In books written after the show went off the air it was said that the Enterprise was the first ship to come back from it's 5 year mission (Of course it was also the first one to go out on such a mission but that's another story, I think Jula Ecklar wrote that one)

IN a song it says "The captain said CONDITION RED, and something quite obscene"

The difference between what most folks would do (Say "OH ____, then CONDITION RED) is the reason Kirk made it back in one piece.

Of course that's fiction.. But it illustrates my point.

[sewander]

Having read the multitude of responses to my question I am struck by many things. First and foremost thank you for your sincere replies that are full of terrific information and education.

Having said this I am astounded at how many people carry firearms "just in case" and I am also greatly relieved that none have been utilized. The best piece of advice is perhaps the most obvious " Be aware of your surroundings"

I don't think I will be purchasing a firearm anytime soon but should I change my mind I will be certain to be fully educated as to its' use and abilities.

In the meantime I hope that no one has to use their "just in case" firearms. As for me I will be electing to utilize the "get out of Dodge" method and try very hard to not place my self in Dodge in the first place!

[two-niner]

According to Judge Napalitano, in the state of New Jersey you must do everything possible to avoid using a firearm. He stated "If a thief breaks into your home, you must flee the house".
He was asked to repeat that statement, which he did. I've always believed him, so it may (must) be true. New Jersey only folks.
Here in Las Vegas you can pick off as many as possible (home intruders) and the police will only ask "do you need replacement rounds?". Or "Good shooting".
Never pull a weapon unless you intend to use it. Bean bags are best as they normally don't damage the coach.

Kerry

[Lindsay Richards]

Here in Florida we have the castle doctrine where you can defend your home and recently can defend your person if you think you are about to be harmed. We have over 1 million concealed carry permits in the state and our local sheriff will do the fingerprinting for free as he feels like it cuts down on crime if the bad guys know they might bee going up against a surprise weapon while doing their crime.

[Chuck 1935]

Originally Posted by johnsonjm209

One of the questions are, "Are you carrying legally?"
I am and I do.

Joe from Ct

As has been said before, I'D RATHER BE JUDGED BY TWELVE THAN CARRIED BY SIX.

[Ray,IN]

sewinder I admire your decision to educate yourself before making a decision to carry a firearm. No-one ever knows if I am, and I sincerely hope it is always that way. A good starter book is "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob, (The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection)
A side note to this is: on the escapees discussion forums a man suprised an armed burglar in his MH last year. He managed to get the pistol (his BTW) away from the burglar and remain unharmed.

Off Topic_ Chuck 1935 where did you get that "pvt E1 retired"stuff? Related to SeeJay by any chance?

[RVhauler]

In reference to the Florida CC being legal in 30 states if you get a utah CC in addition to the FL then can be legal in a couple more states (Like FL you do not have to be a resident)

[Vic Maris]

I am going to post this just to get everyone thinking about the ramifications. Law enforcement officers go through a great deal of training in this stuff. So I am posting this just to get everyone else thinking a little deeper into the subject.

So, you have obtained a firearm and you have attended training. Hopefully, it will be real world training as has been suggested. (I am all for as much training as possible.)

You have given the subject careful consideration. You have locked your weapon up so it does not fall into the wrong hands. You watch your surroundings and get out of dangerous sitituations before they escalate.

But now someone breaks into your motorhome with the intent to rob you or hurt you. You unlock your firearm. You identify that they are indeed an intruder and not a friend or your spouse you mistake for an intruder at night. But the guy continues to close in on you and you are really in danger. You warn him to leave immediately or you will shoot. So you give him the opporunity to leave. He continues to close (not a lot of room in a rig).

So you point to the center of mass (we call this K5 since that is the name of the circle in the center of the target) and you double tap (fire twice). You shoot for the center since most shots often miss. Now depending on the firearm and other factors, the suspect may continue to act as if he has not been hit. It may take several rounds. Law enforcement officers are trained not to tunnel vision on the suspect. You also consider the background. You do not want to fire at someone when there is a child right behind him. That kind of thing. You need to take a lot more into consideration than the bad guy. Training really helps here.

Now when the police arrive you need to consider what you say.

1. He broke into my motorhome which was locked.
2. He approached me and threatened me.
3. I told him to leave and warned him if he did not I would shoot in self defense
4. I shot to "stop" (not to kill).

Now if you appear reasonable and you were in fact protecting yourself against great bodily harm, I would think you would not be prosecuted, but that will depend on the jurisdiction and the DA. But the family of the victim can still sue you. What you say, what you do, your past, everything can come up in their civil lawsuit. You could lose everything. So you need to think about all of this when you decide the carry. You need to think in advance what you will say should you ever be forced to protect yourself or your family.

There is more to consider. Are you smart or stupid? Do you have a bumper sticker that reads "protected by Smith and Wesson" or something like that? Do you really want to give those who are suing you that kind of ammunition?

Of course you are using lethal force and will most likely kill him. Are you ready to live with that?

It is not like the movies. Officers are rarely involved in lethal gunfights. This is a very big deal. When officers are involved in lethal incidents they all get counseling. This is rather old and dated info but at one time it was that about 1/3 of them emerge from the situation relatively okay, 1/3 have to spend some time working with a counselor to overcome what they did or what happened and 1/3 have to quit working in law enforcement altogether. No one wearing a badge takes this lightly.

Now on the other side, when no other alternative exists, lack of action can also get you killed. So I like the real world or tactical training. The most important training I offered my officers was simunition training where we would actually get hit with dummy rounds and when we did it hurt. In the real world, many officers have been hit with non lethal rounds and have given up or hesitated until it was too late. During my training, I watched this happen to most of my officers the first time they ran through the course. The second time, they took action as need to defend themselves. I realized I may be saving the life of one of my cohorts. It was far more effective than target shooting.

There is so much I could write on this subject. I hope this helps to get everyone who has not served either in the armed forces or law enforcement to consider more than just getting a gun for safety. There is a lot to consider just as there is nothing more important than protecting those you love. Being prepared emotionally and having a plan of action cannot be over emphasized.

Here is hoping that the only time you ever have to clear leather is on the range.

Vic Maris

[RickO]

Well said Vic. Thanks.

Rick

[Chuck 1935]

First problem, if you have to unlock your weapon you are not prepared. Problem two, if you are just waking from a sound sleep you are in no shape to make a life or death decision. If none of the above apply, and you have to shoot the intruder, make sure you soak down the cadaver with pepper spray to demonstrae to law enforcment that you emptied your pepper spray on the perp and he just kept on coming at you. A few tears and some hand wringing at this point would also be helpful. Depending upon your act, it could save you thousands in attorney fees.
As far as 2/3 of law enforcment folks having problems after a shooting, I SMELL DISABILITY. If they issue you a gun when you accept the job, that could be a tip off that there could be some danger involved that might require the use of said weapon. It just goes to show what a nation of wooses we have become. If my house is burning down and they send in a 150lb woman to haul my 250lb ass out, I'm begining to rethink equal opportunity employer at this point.
Like the Geico ad says, "need a tissue"

[RickO]

Originally Posted by Chuck 1935

make sure you soak down the cadaver with pepper spray to demonstrae to law enforcment that you emptied your pepper spray on the perp and he just kept on coming at you. A few tears and some hand wringing at this point would also be helpful. Depending upon your act, it could save you thousands in attorney fees.

Sounds like tampering with evidence at the scene of a felony to me.... which I believe is another felony.

Rick

[Chuck 1935]

Originally Posted by RickO

Sounds like tampering with evidence at the scene of a felony to me.... which I believe is another felony.

Rick

Not a good idea, but a GREAT idea !!