Like The Army, The Marines Have Caved

[hooverbill]

I hate to see it, but unfortunately, the Marines have caved just like the Army. A while back the Army appointed a woman to be CG of the drill sergeant's academy, and now the Marine CG at Paris Island is a woman. We need our women in uniform, they make a huge contribution and they do a fine job. However, IMHO, when our young troops are undergoing that huge transition from civilian to soldier/sailor/airman/marine, the folks in charge should be (appear to be) big, mean, nasty, hard charging combat arms type warriors. I think most of us can think back to that first DS...big, lean, very fit, spit shined boots, white side walls, starched fatigues, a stare that could tack you to the wall, and a voice that could be heard all over the parade ground. I never could figure out how he could be out tromping through the woods all day, come back in and the crease was still in the trousers and the shine was still on the boots. Those hard core NCOs are the back bone of all services...and the CG should come from that mold.

http://www.mcrdpi.usmc.mil/

As a 24 year career soldier, maybe I've been out to long, but it seems to me that this PC stuff is going to seriously degrade our ability to do what we need to do in time of war.

[tncruiser]

i agree and thats all i can add
brianj
rvn apr67-nov68

[golden]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hooverbill I hate to see it, but unfortunately, the Marines have caved just like the Army. A while back the Army appointed a woman to be CG of the drill sergeant's academy, and now the Marine CG at Paris Island is a woman. We need our women in uniform, they make a huge contribution and they do a fine job. However, IMHO, when our young troops are undergoing that huge transition from civilian to soldier/sailor/airman/marine, the folks in charge should be (appear to be) big, mean, nasty, hard charging combat arms type warriors. I think most of us can think back to that first DS...big, lean, very fit, spit shined boots, white side walls, starched fatigues, a stare that could tack you to the wall, and a voice that could be heard all over the parade ground. I never could figure out how he could be out tromping through the woods all day, come back in and the crease was still in the trousers and the shine was still on the boots. Those hard core NCOs are the back bone of all services...and the CG should come from that mold. http://www.mcrdpi.usmc.mil/ As a 24 year career soldier, maybe I've been out to long, but it seems to me that this PC stuff is going to seriously degrade our ability to do what we need to do in time of war.

I see that you changed this - dramatically - from yesterday. I tried to answer but apparently it was pulled shortly after you posted it.

It's not that you have been out too long, it's that you never were in a position where a female with strong leadership was in charge of you. In the late 60s (I think) I was on a base where a woman (full bird at the time) was named as the Base Commander. Everyone (males, obviously) hated the idea until she began her job and did great. She ultimately retired at MG (I think, could've been LTG). The finest officer who I ever served under was a young 1LT who was assigned to my unit as an intel officer. She was willing to learn and she got right in there whenever we deployed.

As a ISG, I had women both under my command and those who served above me as well. It isn't hard to tell if a person is a leader or not and it has nothing to do with gender. Personally, I had no problems with females in leadership positions because they did a good job, every bit as good as a male could.

FWIW, I was in the MC prior to spending 20+ years in the Army and, like you, I've seen it all. I have no problem with a female being assigned to any job as long as she can do the job.

It's too bad that your original post couldn't be on the forum because it would show exactly where you're coming from. You bemoaned the fact that PC was killing us and yet you changed your message. Who's PC now?

[Cat320]

I do not disagree that some women are good leaders. And, no doubt there are very good female soldiers and I don't question their ability to be proficient in many basic military skills or their patriotism. The problem I have is that there are some things the women are just not strong enough or have enough endurance to do, period. Such a hump an 80# pack, hour after hour, while wearing full combat gear with the temps nearing 100, hump artillery or armor projectiles, be able to drag a fellow pilot out of a burning helicopter (or burning anything) then carry him to safety. I had two tours in sunny SE Asia, on one occasion, I landed on fire, and was able to get my sorry ass out without a problem. If I had been injured, I have no doubt the other pilot (6'2" and about 210#) could have gotten me out very easily, with a 5'2" 110# woman, I'd have been in trouble.

[RJay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by golden I see that you changed this - dramatically - from yesterday. I tried to answer but apparently it was pulled shortly after you posted it. It's not that you have been out too long, it's that you never were in a position where a female with strong leadership was in charge of you. In the late 60s (I think) I was on a base where a woman (full bird at the time) was named as the Base Commander. Everyone (males, obviously) hated the idea until she began her job and did great. She ultimately retired at MG (I think, could've been LTG). The finest officer who I ever served under was a young 1LT who was assigned to my unit as an intel officer. She was willing to learn and she got right in there whenever we deployed. As a ISG, I had women both under my command and those who served above me as well. It isn't hard to tell if a person is a leader or not and it has nothing to do with gender. Personally, I had no problems with females in leadership positions because they did a good job, every bit as good as a male could. FWIW, I was in the MC prior to spending 20+ years in the Army and, like you, I've seen it all. I have no problem with a female being assigned to any job as long as she can do the job. It's too bad that your original post couldn't be on the forum because it would show exactly where you're coming from. You bemoaned the fact that PC was killing us and yet you changed your message. Who's PC now?

To set the record straight, hooverbill is entitled to his opinion. What he or any other member is not entitled to is to express it in a way that detracts from the established decorum of this forum. His post was changed to conform to that decorum and not to a PC point of view.

[Wayne M]

Consider that every Marine is a rifleman. It matters not what their gender be. Woman Marines go through the same training that a male Marine goes through. No exception. If I were in combat again I would be proud to have a female Marine watching my back.

[toadswife]

Totally disagree, but I am female AND active duty. I have been in combat, worn all the gear and yes carried my fellow man when he couldnt move on his own. Lets be clear there are thousands of men who cant carry their own weight why bag on females. We can lead right along with u men, gender SHOULD NOT be an issue. That is all...

[mick]

I discovered something years ago. I just love females, EVEN in uniform.

[wa8yxm]

In my 60 years walking this earth the only thing I've seen that can make a Marine back down is Woman.

And you think they need to be Big and Ugly to be scary?

[Wayne M]

Quote:

Originally Posted by toadswife Totally disagree, but I am female AND active duty. I have been in combat, worn all the gear and yes carried my fellow man when he couldnt move on his own. Lets be clear there are thousands of men who cant carry their own weight why bag on females. We can lead right along with u men, gender SHOULD NOT be an issue. That is all...

Thank you for your service.

Well said.

[hooverbill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by toadswife Totally disagree, but I am female AND active duty. I have been in combat, worn all the gear and yes carried my fellow man when he couldnt move on his own. Lets be clear there are thousands of men who cant carry their own weight why bag on females. We can lead right along with u men, gender SHOULD NOT be an issue. That is all...

I too appreciate your service, but I totally disagree with your post. I'm not talking about leadership, but as an earlier poster stated, there is no way the average woman can perform the duties required in most of the combat arms, it is just plain physically impossible. Gender must be an issue and it has to be an issue. In the Army, the PT test standards are totally different...because most women cannot pass even the lowest standards for the men. I spent two years in the combat zone (both in combat arms units), have a been a trainer of both men and women and retired as a commissioned officer. Believe me, women in the combat arms will not work.

As some brilliant scholar from one of our liberal institutions of higher learning once said, "men and women are different."

[two-niner]

hooverbill: I agree with you completely.

toadswife: Would you please give me your references for "thousands of men can't carry their own weight". ?

Kerry

[Wayne M]

Although the manner of testing is slightly different, the final outcome is the same for Marines.
They have to achieve the minimum score to pass a PFT. You can query "PT Standards for Marines," to ascertain the difference.

Marine Corps PFT Classification Scores - Male and Female
Class Age 17-26 Age 27-39 Age 40-45 Age 46+
1st ---------225---------- 200--------- 175--------- 150
2nd --------175--------- 150---------- 125---------- 100
3rd --------- 135--------- 110---------- 88---------- 65

The Physical Fitness Test is designed to test the fitness of an individual. The end results are what counts.

Consider other Nations that have female military. I would not want to mess with them, just like I would not want to mess with a Marine who happens to be of female gender.

So if you have to discuss inabilities, do not include Women Marines. As they call themselves, "The few, the proud, the Women Marines." As the male counterparts, "The few, the proud, the Marines." Sound familiar.

[Glassalley52]

When a man has had a baby, then he can talk to me about who is stronger!