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Old 11-05-2012, 07:11 PM   #15
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This whole thread is political. How many workers in the US took jobs, with union contracts where the employees and current workers had to make concessions.
Dave, I agree with you.. I may make a comment on Wed, after the election. (But I doubt it)

This thread is a political hot topic.. Without making a political comment I have seen some posts in areas where politics are allowed citing the position of the candidates on this very subject. Thus this entire thread is political in my opinion.


I will say I support ONE of the candidates.. And this is part of the reason even though I have never been in the military. (not for lack of trying).
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:25 PM   #16
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Thank you for re-opening this thread.

To all readers, the intent of my original post was not political, but for information purposes that can affect all of us receiving fixed income from the Government. Consider that such a proposal would be picked up and run with to reduce our benefits, could you take a 30% cut in fixed income pay, your retirement pay, your military pay, your Social Security pay? Just take the figure $100,000 and reduce it by 30%. A loss of $30,000 annually. That would hurt me. Please, take the words liberal, conservative, or any party affiliations out of the topic and just respond on the affect such or any implementations of the article would have for you and your family.
Firstly Wayne let me say thank you for your service to the USA.

Secondly let me say welcome to the real "New Normal" where retirement benefits will be cut. Does it suck? Sure but only because you're on the recieving end of the cut.

Did it suck when the Polaroid retiree's got their pension benefits slashed by 50% because they company went Chapter 13?

Companies need to live within their means and promises to retiree's WILL have to be broken if that company is going to continue to be profitable in the future.

Now replace US Government with Company...

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Consider that three military informational news media felt there was a story for their troops to read.

Consider this. Most likely the Volunteer military would be done away with, and possibly the draft being reinstated.

Consider this: It is stated that the military person(s) is overpaid by $5400 annually because they are making more than their counterpart in the civilian community.
Where in the world did that idea come from. Explain where a ground force troop has a counterpart in the civilian world? Let's see, Luby's, Dallas Tower, etc.

Semper Fi!
As for government compared to civilian counterparts: Airplane mechanics vs. mechanics at United/Southwest, etc.,

MP vs. local cops. Special forces vs. SWAT members.

The main problem is this - in the civilian world salaries can and have decreased in order to make the companies more profitable. In the military there has been yearly COLA's irregardless.

I'm not saying it's right I'm just trying to explain how and why it's likely to occur...
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:46 PM   #17
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Firstly Wayne let me say thank you for your service to the USA.
Wayne himself will be the first to tell you that he did NOT serve in the Military.

In fact, he just did in the post immediately preceding yours.

I think this is important to point out since, though I may disagree with some of the positions he espouses, I have the greatest respect for his lack of a selfish personal motive in doing so.

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Old 11-05-2012, 08:28 PM   #18
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This whole thread is political. How many workers in the US took jobs, with union contracts where the employees and current workers had to make concessions.
I find it odd that anyone would compare union contract benefits to G.I. Benefits.
I could understand comparing vets to fire and police...but even that is not really equal to me.

There is just no way to compare...from ordering employees to far off shores. YES they call them orders for a reason..."No" isn't a acceptable answer. To a job that says you earn vacation, but if you want to take a Friday and Monday off...that's 4 days of your balence...and so many thing in between.

All I can say is get out there and vote tomorrow! If a government that cuts the already low pay and benefits of veterans is in power, our hobby to drive around in rolling houses might just be something that the government wants to cut too.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:10 PM   #19
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You find it odd? I don't find it odd that everyone makes a choice in their occupation. The volunteers that made the choice to be in the armed forces made a choice of occupation. Auto workers, truck drivers, teachers, police, firefighters, made a choice in their occupation. Why should the people who chose a civilian occupation have to put up with pay cuts, loss of benefits, cut pensions, and so on, while the Military feels they should be immune to these cuts?

When is the last time a soldier was laid off or had their hours cut? This is now a fact of life. I am sure most members of the Military don't feel "above it all"

So I ask the question, why do you find what I said odd. Union layoffs, plant closings, company bankruptcy, and loss of manufacturing jobs all contribute to ones ability to afford the RV lifestyle. Someone who owns and RV 55 years old looses their 25 year job, and can't replace the income they were depending on to retire the way they wanted to. Why is that any different?
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:21 PM   #20
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Concessions have occurred with many of the working class from top to bottom. If 1 is subjected to such concessions then cut backs on their personal life can/may/will occur. RVs are a hobby/toy, just as a motorcycle, classic car, golf bag, season football tickets etc etc....plans change due to income...that is just part of life. Any who have been effected will have to decide which of their "toys" will have to be let go

Be it right or wrong....that is life...and most all of us are effected.
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:15 PM   #21
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So let me see if I've got this straight. A disabled veterans or full military retiree based on years in service benefits agreement - which was signed and agreed to between our servicemen and women and the United States of American (which is in fact the American people) is a contract no better or secure than that of any company?

I hate to say this but perhaps this whole voluntary enlistment idea has run it's course. Instead of volunteers being viewed as noble, honorable people serving their country - they're viewed as anyone else simply making an employment choice. Opportunists. Maybe restoring the draft would clear things up a bit - and let's not have a bunch of college and money bought deferments - get through college or your missionary service and then serve your time if your number had come up. If it doesn't you can enlist or not. In any event - when you get home and your time is served - go RVing secure in the notion that your benefits are backed by the full faith and credit of the Good Ole USA. And remember - GO Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, All Reserves and RVing.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:00 AM   #22
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Hmmm time for another nasty note from the mod, I can feel it coming....but.....

In 59 when I joined the Marines, I WAS guaranteed medical carae FOR LIFE. It was a contract between me and the U.S. GOVT. Fast forward a few years, and VIOLA, Congress changed the law.

I suppose I could say I am lucky to be totally disabled in Nam, I do get free medical care as a result. But what about the ones that didnt?

Most (you wont like this part) of the ones who joined the service and were FORCED to go to Nam or korea or any war, DO believe that the all volunteer forces is a choice of work , not duty to ones country, (I suspect as usual there is a 10% exception) and they do so to get the bennies and the pay.

If you have trouble accepting this, look at the pay scales and the promotional opportunities now as compared to "back then".

Do I have a problem with what they get NOW ? Absolutely!! There is quite a difference between CHOOSING to do something and being FORCED TO DO something that is against all natural thinking. Buying a country safety with money and benefits is totally against my grain of thought. America is still free, so I can say that.

Do I think they (veterans) deserve better than anything else? You betcha!!!! But only if you are FORCED to join the military. I just happen to believe in the draft and the old part of being committed to 6 years in the service of our country.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:36 AM   #23
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Calm down. This was written bygone political party to make the other look bad. Think it is a coincidence this came out right before an election?
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:49 AM   #24
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What's interesting is the notion of a retirement as a lifestyle. My grandparents never retired but worked until they passed away. It only seems like in the past 50 years that this notion of worked until a set period then relaxing has taken place.

As someone who hasn't served in the government but always worked for small businesses or owned my own business I don't plan on social security being around in 25 years when it's my turn; at least not at a level I'll need to support my lifestyle.

It's time for everyone to take care and plan for themselves because I don't care who's in the White House I just have doubts. Not being political just being realistic.
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:50 AM   #25
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It is a fact of life that all government pensions and benefits have to be reviewed and adjusted based on current and future capabilities to pay. We have all seen stories about local and state retirement plans where the officials voted themselves ridiculous levels of benefits and pay all paid by the tax payers of course. This is no different than companies converting from defined benefit packages to defined contribution plans also known as 401k. The cost of long term benefits have become just to costly to be sustainable.

I do believe that those of you served to protect me deserve to be the last affected. But even for those in the military there should be some changes. There should be (and maybe there already is) a difference between someone who spent 20+ years in Kansas fixing trucks and someone who jumped into a firefight somewhere around the world or served in war zones for extended periods of time and on multiple occasions.

Those that did 20 and never left the country, I'm not sure the taxpayers owe you a lifetime of benefits.

What bothers some is that teachers, civil servants, politicians, ex-military can draw a pension and other benefits (albeit at a reduced rate perhaps) at age 38 for life. It makes no sense to receive retirement benefits for 40 plus years after working 20. This is not sustainable.

We have state senators as an example running for re-election who are receiving retirement benefits for the same job. All this as to stop.

Reducing pension and benefits for those already retired is a problem. Changing the rules for active and future military/government employees should be on the table.

My wife was a hospice nurse and visited military retirees struggling to make ends meet in the their last days. This was hard for her to deal with. I don't think that having to take one less trip a year in an RV because of a reduction in pension payments rates the same. Lets take care of those that need it most.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:50 AM   #26
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Wayne himself will be the first to tell you that he did NOT serve in the Military

In fact, he just did in the post immediately preceding yours.

I think this is important to point out since, though I may disagree with some of the positions he espouses, I have the greatest respect for his lack of a selfish personal motive in doing so.

Francesca
Ah dear Francesca. Not true.

According to my discharge papers (DD-214) I spent 23 years 6 months 1 day in the United States Marine Corps.

Would I do it again? You bet!
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:11 AM   #27
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There are means in the military to reduce forces. It usually does not happen during conflict times, but during the more peaceful times many are "weeded" out. I spent a year as a Career Planner. Just to brag a little bit, my retention rate was over 100%. However, that did not stop the Marine Corps from denying reenlistment for many more over that percentage that applied for reenlistment. Every Marine was required to come in and sit with me for awhile and discuss their future plans, go over their record, and for me to make a "suggestion(s)" on paths they could choose. Sometimes there were bonuses for highly skilled career paths, and some times there were much smaller bonuses for not so highly skilled career paths.

Consider, when I was in - a thousand years ago - taking a year to basically train an air craft mechanic, or an electronic repair technician. It was very beneficial for the military to offer bonuses as retention for these skilled areas. (Stay with me.) Many, upon joining, were put into career fields that were "needed at the time," so when and if they reenlisted they could apply for the skilled fields if their aptitude was adequate enough. They also received a bonus and typically, depending on the skill field classroom duration, had to sign an obligatory "pay back" length of service contract. The longer the school, the longer the pay back up to six years. Anyhow, that's just a little information.

There are specialty pays within the military branches. By specialty pay, a military person in a combat zone will receive $225 extra a month while in the combat zone. Different specialties not in a combat zone can receive some type of compensation depending on their specialty. When I was in, my specialty pay started out at $30 a month, and when I retired it was $75 a month. Those monies were for all within my specialty, and did not depend on time in service or grade of service. It is considered an incentive to "keep one in."

You can do your own homework on military and civilian comparison pay. There are a lot of charts out there. Here is just one I found:

A Private (E-1) in the military received approximately $18,000 annually without specialty pay.

A police cadet received approximately $23,000 annually.

Not much of a difference there.

Keep in mind that the Private (E-1) will most likely remain an E-1 for a year, then be promoted, if he's good, to Private First Class (E-2) at which time his pay will increase to $20,400. Unless he gets another promotion, it will remain there for his entire time in the military. Eventually he will be required to get out, and at that rank usually he can serve no more than 6 years.

For sake of comparison, let me use the $20,400 salary for a military policeman, pay grade E-2.

Military E-2 - $20,400

Civilian:
Police Cadet - $23,00
Community Service Officer $31,000
Campus Police Officer $34,000
Police Recruit $49,000

Those are starting job salaries on advertised jobs. One is for a Police Officer Lateral at $68,000 a year.

Tell me. Where is the equivalency between military pay and civilian pay?

A military E-1 received $20,400 a year without specialty pay. It doesn't mater if they are a nurse, x-ray technician, air craft mechanic, dog handler, infantry, communications, or whatever field they are in, they receive $20,400 a year basic pay.

Not knowing what every specialty pay is, but "assuming" combat pay is one of the higher, just add $2700 a year to the base pay for a military man in combat.

I don't see the equivalency.

Semper Fi!
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:32 AM   #28
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Ah dear Francesca. Not true.

According to my discharge papers (DD-214) I spent 23 years 6 months 1 day in the United States Marine Corps.

Would I do it again? You bet!
OOPS!

I mixed you up with this fellow...AGAIN. My Apologies to both!
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.
And this is part of the reason even though I have never been in the military. (not for lack of trying).
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