Crating- and differences of Breeders & puppymillers

[GraciesMom]

Brenda - I apologize. I should have explained myself in more detail to you.

Professional rescues consist of several steps in order to make sure that there is enough evidence to prosecute the puppy mill once the "sting" is completed. The first step is to prove that the sale of puppies is taking place - thus the "buying" of the puppy. This money usually comes from the rescue agency. Next, you take the puppy to the vet to see if it shows any signs of inbreeding, disease, parasites, or other problems associated with puppy mill puppies.

While this is being done, you stake out the seller in order to find the puppy mill - which is usually located in another area. Once you find the puppy mill, you take photographs if possible - you take a photograph of the seller at the site - then you attempt to get into the site when the seller is not there to get actual photos of the conditions of the dogs. After all of this, you present the evidence to the authorities - and if the laws are strong enough, the rescue agency gets it's money back for the puppy it purchased and the puppy mill is busted and put out of business.

In an ideal situation, the owner of the puppy mill is legally forbidden to ever breed any animal again. In bad situations, like the one recently in Pennsylvania, the owner, after getting fined for the horrible condition of his breeding "stock", walked through his facility and methodically shot every dog in the puppy mill. 80 dogs. And nothing could be done to him because the dogs were his property. It was not against the law in Pennsylvania for him to kill his property.

In the past, when nothing was going to be done to a puppy mill, rescue agencies HAVE gone in and bought the entire operation in order to get the hundreds of dogs away from the puppy mill owner. I'm not sure how I feel about that - but at least the dogs were rescued.

Until people stop requiring pure bred dogs at a low price, puppy mills will flourish. Until pet stores are no longer allowed to sell puppies - and these stores do buy from puppy mills - puppy mills will flourish. Until we, as concerned human beings and dog owners, demand that laws be passed to prevent dogs and cats from being treated, bred, and housed like cattle, puppy mills will flourish. Until the AKC raises it's standards and stops accepting anyone with a pedigree to breed and register dogs with them, puppy mills will flourish. You would be amazed at how many puppy mills produce AKC registered puppies. And if they can't get registered through AKC, there's the UKC, CKC, WKC, NKC and most people buying a cheap purebred dog don't care who it's registered with.

If the laws were strict enough - if only decent, caring people could breed dogs, if breeders had to be licensed and inspected, if the requirements for housing breeding dogs were more humane . . . if, if, if. But nothing will change until WE demand the change.

There are pure breed rescues all over the country and they are overwhelmed . . . but at least the pure breeds have a chance at a better life. Those poor little mutts in the pound don't stand much of a chance.

I will restate my position - I DO NOT BUY dogs to pad the pockets of puppy mills. I adopt the ones rescued. I adopt from pounds. And I pick them up off the street. The only thing I don't like about RVing is that I don't have enough room, or a yard, to rescue as many as possible.

[Lynnvt]

Here in the North East it's hard to find a dog for a pet. I looked for many months at all the humane societies in VT and only found breeds or breed mixes (beagles and pit bulls) that I wasn't interested in owning. We finally found a wonderful dog through a rescue group. There are quite a few in our state, the dogs are being brought from the south. Unfortunately we lost our first rescue dog. Fortunately we quickly found Sam from my staff newspaper. It is hard to find the right dog. Both our previous dogs came from the pound but there aren't that many at the pound any more.

[GraciesMom]

Angel, Gracie and Molly - waiting for mom to come home.



Playing in the sun - top is Molly, Angel is lying down, Gracie is sneezing . . .

[MonacoMama]

I think the last thing I will say as to not stat another rant is that I feel it is up to the consumer to do the research if you are going to buy a "purebred pup". Make sure that the breeder is reputable. Ask for references. Do not be intimidated. Make sure there is some sort of "Money Back Guarantee". Please email or PM me if you want to know how a reputable breeder's website might look like..and I will send you a link. Not all breeders are BYB (backyard breeders) or Puppy-millers and it is possible to find sweet pups raised in a loving, caring environment and you will not feel guilty of the choice you make if you find the same type of breeder.
MM

[golden]

I've had to walk away and calm myself down before responding to this thread.

Firstly, congrats on your three dogs. I know they are and will be well taken care of by someone who will love them and knows whats best for them.

Secondly, I was a BREEDER, raiser and showed Shelties for over 20 years. I was well respected in my region and had moderate success in the show ring, as well as a reputation for BREEDING well behaved, happy Shelties who were as close to the standard of the breed as we could get. Because we gave so much of ourselves personally and financially, we didn't make a profit. But, I would have loved to have made a profit and don't begrudge those who do (I'm talking about professionals, not puppy mills or backyard breeders) because I know what goes into working with dogs in the "show" business. Don't lump me into the side of BREEDING that is puppy milling.

Thirdly, I really don't give a rat's butt what someone's religion, gender, sexual preference, etc., is and I don't want it put in my face. I care whether the person is a good person who will raise pets in such a manner as to insure their well being.

Fourth, I support rescue and especially breed rescue groups and bless them for what they do to help dogs. Even when we bred our Shelties and had prospective owners (yes, we screened people and more often than not refused to sell our dogs as we felt they couldn't/wouldn't be what we wanted them to be as owners), frequently we recommended people to seek out a rescue group (we always gave references) instead.

Finally, I DON'T support PETA or what I call any of the fringe groups who have gone over the edge regarding "saving" our pets. I do support the SPCA, but there is a big difference between the two.

There have been multiple soapboxes shown in this thread, including mine. I'll go back to my original entry and say you have three cute dogs and I know they will be well taken care of.

[bsavage]

I think a lot of excellent points have been made here, and clearly we are all animal prople. Those puppies are beautiful, Gracie's Mom!

[GraciesMom]

Thanks for understanding, Brenda.

The girls say "Hi!" - funny that they're all the same color. It wasn't planned that way - that's just the way they came. Gracie came from California, Angel from Colorado and Molly from Arizona.

[Rom]

For what it's worth regarding differences between breeders and puppymillers, there's an interesting/informative article about this on the Apr. 13 issue of Newsweek magazine.
(http://magazine-directory.com/Newsweek..htm)

[GraciesMom]

That's an excellent article ROM - thank you so much.

[golden]

Originally Posted by Rom

For what it's worth regarding differences between breeders and puppymillers, there's an interesting/informative article about this on the Apr. 13 issue of Newsweek magazine.
(http://magazine-directory.com/Newsweek..htm)

This article is about PUPPYMILLS and UNETHICAL BREEDERS - not about those of us who care very much for our dogs and are scrupulous and ethical in how we conduct ourselves. We breed one to three litters a year (depending upon how many SHOW bitches we have), always trying to better the breed. There are very few who make a profit doing this, it is a labor of love. I can't tell you how many people have told us that when they die, they want to come back as one of our dogs.

We no longer breed, raise or show dogs, but let me tell you how we did it. All our bitches (over a 20+ year timeframe) were artificially inseminated (primarily to insure the sire wouldn't pick up any diseases). ALL the litters we had over the years were whelped in our house, in a specially made whelping box and attended to by my wife (she felt they got better attention if she helped). If any additional attention was needed, our vet was on call.

Puppies were raised in the house until either they were sold (never before their second series of shots, generally longer) or it was time for their training as a show dog began and they entered the kennel. In the kennel we had the crates lined up on two levels, seven to a level (rarely were they all filled). The dogs spent hours outside in yards that were set up for their play and exercise and all the yards were fenced. We also had an area of about 30 x 30 that had a roof over it so the dogs could still have quality time outside in inclement weather. All the dogs were fed and slept in their crates at night.

When we went to a show, our show dogs traveled in the RV with us. The ones that had to stay home had a "dog sitter" who was there with them full time.

Shots and exams were done on a regular basis. Socialization with other dogs and especially with other people was very important. To do that, I had a 42x72 Morton building erected and two regulation rings inside. We did our training here and had others from the area come over and do the same.

It was not until we retired and moved to a retirement community that didn't allow more than two pets that we stopped doing what we loved. To say that we miss it is an understatement.

The way we did it is not unusual among our friends. We all cared about what we did and how we did it. We also "policed" our own to insure that what people did was to do it the right way. We strongly encouraged not to overbreed and to ONLY breed to strengthen the breed. We all knew what we were doing.

So, I REALLY get upset when people - who probably should know better - automatically assume that ethical people like me who breed their dogs are automatically puppymillers. There is a world of difference and I don't care to be mentioned in the same breathe.

I hope that my blather here will help those who may not have understood before that there is a huge difference and what that difference is.

[GraciesMom]

No one EVER said that there are not good, reputable breeders of purebred dogs.

What has been discussed here is the fact that puppy mills exist, that they are HORRIBLE, should be OUTLAWED and that there are SOME breeders promoting a facade of being REPUTABLE while they are nothing but fronts for puppy mills. That is a fact.

I am sorry that I enraged all of the good, dedicated, honest, caring, compassionate breeders out there - but that was NOT my intention and nowhere in the posts was it ever my intention to "lump together" legitimate breeders and puppy mills.

We are into a matter of semantics now - the word breeder means different things to different people, unfortunately. I think we should put the tag "reputable" with the word breeder and that would remove the negative connotations that some people attach to the word "breeder". (Although some people think dog breeding is not acceptable under any circumstances.)

A friend of mine in Wyoming runs a pomeranian rescue as well as breeds pomeranians and she's one of the most amazing women I've ever met - gives unselfishly to save these babies, but still runs a successful, caring, compassionate pomeranian breeding business. I don't understand how she can justify breeding more pomeranians when she averages housing 60 abandoned purebred pomeranians at one time that she's trying to place in homes, but that's just MY opinion.

So - I have NEVER said that there are not good breeders out there - I was simply trying to point out the fact that there are a lot of people who breed dogs (is that a better term?) that do everything they can to present a facade of being reputable when they are NOT and we should make sure that we aren't lining their pockets and contributing to the misery of dogs. I know it's hard to believe, but there are actually people who do not know anything about puppy mills.

The article that ROM told everyone about was an excellent article, in that it exposed just how bad puppy mills are . . . and how insensitive - to the point of being sociopathic - the owners of these puppy mills are.

I hope we can end this thread here - we all accept the fact that there are good "reputable breeders" who truly care about the dogs they breed, and there are others that promote themselves as breeders when in fact they are puppy mills.

There - does that make everyone happy?

[Jim Stewart]

I don't even have a dog and I'm happy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jim Stewart]

"Mi Taku Oyasin" We Are All Related

[bsavage]

This is always a heated topic, Gracie's Mom. Again, I have to say that I am glad for the conversation, for enlightening those that have read this thread, and for the passion with which those of us that breed carefully, lovingly, and responsibly have had a forum to explain how and why we breed our dogs. As for your friend that breeds as well as rescues, well, she may be, in my opinion, one of the best of the best. If the best of breeding is to improve the breed, then you wouldn't breed the ones that didn't health test well, or carry the best in breed traits, or that had unknown hereditary defects, or that carried unsocial traits. Yet, someone has bred these dogs not caring about any of these things, and these dogs still need homes. So, she helps place them. I am sure she is spaying and nuetering them. My hat is off to her. It sounds to me like she is trying to educate perspective owners as well as save the poor babies who shouldn't have been bred (or sold to owners who wouldn't/couldn't take care of them).

Golden, I too would like to come back as one of your dogs, or as one of mine. You are, quite obviously, a passionate, caring, and loving breeder. I am sure you miss it, and I'd love to see some pics of your two!

Jim, how can you not have a dog???? Gracie'sMom knows someone who has the perfect Pomeranian rescue for you! Dogs are very excellent travel companions...

Brenda, of...