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Old 02-08-2013, 01:57 PM   #1
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Katie's Bloodline - How Do I Track Lineage?

I am at a loss. My Katie Charlotte (10-26-99 to 10-30-12) was an AKC registered dog.

In December I contacted the breeder, a single retired lady in Brush, Colorado. She no longer has any of the operation, she retired about 10 years ago. She checked with a friend who had a couple of Katie's cousins, but she cannot help find her either.

I also contacted the AKC, they can't help with a 'reverse' pedigree. They suggest I contact some sort of pedigree profiling company or lineage (progeny) tracking company.

Is there such a company? Someone that could track the progeny of Katie's parents'siblings? To try to find a living bloodline of Katie's?

Anyone?

Thanks
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:20 PM   #2
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AKC has a program of pedigree overview that will track ancestry,look online at akc.The phone number to track ancestors is 919 233-9767. I'm hopeing you have registry number.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:05 PM   #3
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Kent - Found this online ... can't vouch for whether it's true or not (regardless of what the State Farm commercial says - lol). But this is what it says: "Go to the akc website and find the dog search link. Now enter your dogs registration number and your dog should pop up. The only difference between your dogs registration numbers and its littermates is the last 2 digits. The first dog will end with 01 and the 2nd dog will be 02 and so on." What I'm thinking is that if you can find Katie's littermates and contact those owners, perhaps one of them had puppies. Don't know if that will help you or not, but hope so.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:21 PM   #4
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Will do Thanks Carol!
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:53 PM   #5
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Here's all I could find: (Carol, you were right, Katie is 04 and her brother is 01. 02 and 03 I guess were never registered or ? )

Katie's Great Aunt:
"Tina's Charlotte O'hara" Lhasa Apso / Red GoldenFemale / AUG-04-1986 NT154266

KATIE:
"Katie Charlotte O'Hara Bless" , Lhasa Apso / GOLDEN Female / OCT-26-1999 NM84413504


Katie's Brother:
"Blue Eyed Buster Leivian" Lhasa Apso/GOLDEN Male/OCT-26-1999 NM84413501 "


Katie's Father:
"Brookforest Gremlin Buddy" Lhasa Apso / Red GoldMale / JAN-12-1993 NM46377405 "

Katie's Mother:
"Brookforest Zorba's Zoe"Lhasa Apso / GOLDENFemale / AUG-24-1997 NM74100301

All of the progeny reports say the same thing:


XXXXXX has not whelped/sired any progeny that are titled at this time.
Information about dogs whelped before 1980 and awards/results for events held before 1986 may not be available in our online database. Information about all AKC-registered dogs and all AKC-sanctioned events is maintained in our permanent archives.

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Old 02-08-2013, 04:04 PM   #6
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:07 PM   #7
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Check with the national breed club.
Some breeds have their own databases with much (but not all) info in it.
The AKC site should give you the link the the national club, and it can point you to regional clubs - go to a club meeting and talk to breeders there - you can probably get more info about pedigrees there than anywhere else.
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:57 PM   #8
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You can also try here Orthopedic Foundation for Animals there's a Search function in the left hand column if any of the offspring you have numbers for you might find more info here and anyone who might be breeding these lines still.

American Lhasa Apso Club The American Lhasa Apso Club

Lhasa Apso Club of Central Colorado Email: LhasaLhady@aol.com
Lhasa Apso Club of Central Colorado

Secretary Corresponding: Debby Rothman

Address: 8391 London Ln, Conifer, CO , 80433-9713

Email: LhasaLhady@aol.com

Club Type: Specialty

Club Detail: Click here


Lhasa Apso Club of Central Colorado

Secretary Corresponding: Debby Rothman

Address: 8391 London Ln, Conifer, CO , 80433-9713

Email: LhasaLhady@aol.com

Club Type: Specialty

Club Detail: Click here


Lhasa Apso Club of Central Colorado

Secretary Corresponding: Debby Rothman

Address: 8391 London Ln, Conifer, CO , 80433-9713

Email: LhasaLhady@aol.com
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:36 PM   #9
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Kent - Did it also give you the (owner) contact info for Katie's brother? Perhaps "Blue Eyed Buster" sired some pups. I just can't believe that the AKC cannot trace "forward".
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:56 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danandcarol View Post
Kent - Did it also give you the (owner) contact info for Katie's brother? Perhaps "Blue Eyed Buster" sired some pups. I just can't believe that the AKC cannot trace "forward".
No, it didn't, but maybe the AKC could look into that. Since she did have a brother, that would be a great place to start.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:56 AM   #11
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[QUOTE=Retreever;1457182]You can also try here Orthopedic Foundation for Animals there's a Search function in the left hand column if any of the offspring you have numbers for you might find more info here and anyone who might be breeding these lines still.

American Lhasa Apso Club The American Lhasa Apso Club

Lhasa Apso Club of Central Colorado Email: LhasaLhady@aol.com
Lhasa Apso Club of Central Colorado

Secretary Corresponding: Debby Rothman

Address: 8391 London Ln, Conifer, CO , 80433-9713

Email: LhasaLhady@aol.com

Club Type: Specialty

Club Detail: Click here


Thanks so much and so kindly. I'll begin working on this this week!

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Old 02-15-2013, 08:47 AM   #12
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Just an update on this. I received the following wonderful message from Ms. Debby from the Central Colorado Lhasa Apso Club in response to my rambling email to her requesting help.

Last line clinches me into tears. She is obviously a woman of true compassion and love.

As she indicates, little chance, but in a way, they are truly all related.

Quote:
Dear Kent,


It is obvious you loved your Lhasa Apsos very much. I am sorry, but I don't know any of Katie's relatives, or Ms. Smith. She is your best resource in attempting to find relatives of Katie. The problem in this situation, as I see it, is most people spay/neuter their pets. If Ms. Smith is no longer in business it is very possible Katie's family reached the end of their lineage and there simply aren't any relatives able to reproduce. Again, Ms. Smith is your best resource. She should have records of where each dog went. However, if she operates like me, she sold her puppies on spay/neuter contracts.


I am going to forward your email to a friend of mine who keeps an extensive database. Definitely a needle in a haystack, but if anyone besides Ms. Smith has information regarding Katie's relatives, it would be him. I don't expect positive results, so please don't get your hopes up.


I truly wish I had better news. :-( This may not be of value, but the AKC gene pool of Lhasa Apsos date back to a handful of imports in Tibet. No matter what Lhasa Apso you bring into your home, there would be a little piece of Katie or Charlotte.
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Old 02-18-2013, 10:01 AM   #13
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Further discovery

Ms. Rothman's referral has written me and even though we are not planning on a positive outcome, Mr. Rodney is retired and loves to search databases and has the time and has so graciously and generously offered to assist me.

Here is his recent email to me.


Quote:
Dear Mr. Bless,

This morning I received a very touching email from Debby Rothman with a copy of your email to her yesterday. I can really feel your loss of your beloved Lhasa, Katie.

By way of introduction my name is Rodney Weed and I got my first Lhasa Apso in 1972 in Fort Collins, CO. Since then I have never been without at least one. Currently I have five Lhasas ranging in age from 15 to 3. My Lhasa, Somba who is now 9 is a direct descendant of the very first Lhasa I got in 1972. I had so desired to breed her to continue that connection but all attempts to breed her never took. So I fully understand your desire to find another Lhasa having some connection with your Katie. However Debby was correct in saying the Lhasa gene pool is not the largest and when you start studying pedigrees you can usually find many links even if distant.

Remember Lhasa Apsos were first registered by the AKC in 1935 and it was a very small number of Lhasas that started the whole thing in this country. The newest blood coming into the breed are the Gompa Lhasas which Ms. Rothman is a key factor in getting them accepted by the AKC to allow new genetics to come into the breed.

Everything that Debby wrote in her reply to you is true.

However, there is a remote chance I might find a little something for you. I have entered over 6000 Lhasas into a large internet database and I have in my possession here at my home the complete AKC stud book listings for Lhasa Apsos from the first listing in 1935 through 1991. I have not been able to get anymore from the AKC after the 1991 records and the dogs you mentioned in your letter to Debby would all be after my records run out.

Based on what you sent to Debby, I have added all that information into the internet database that I work with on a regular basis. This is what I have so far.


It is a three generation pedigree for your Katie, but two of the three generations are missing. What I can also tell you about your Katie is that she came from a litter of at least 4 puppies possibly more. I also know a kennel name was used i.e. Brookforest. However, that does not mean it was not a puppy mill type of situation. The kennel name, Brookforest, is not known to me, but I certainly do not know all the kennel names, but it is where I would start to try and find other connections with your Katie. Do you have a good pedigree for her of at least three or more generations. The breeder should have sent you one with Katie. If you do not you can order either a three or four generation pedigree from the AKC that would be excellent to work with. They are not cheap ($25.00 for three generations and $32.00 for four generations) but here is where you would go to get one:

American Kennel Club - Order an AKC Certified Pedigree

Either way if you could email me a more complete pedigree I would be able to go a lot further in helping you with your search. I am happy to do what I can for you. I am retired and I enjoy this type of challenge.

For every new dog we can add to Katie's pedigree we increase the chance that it will link up with one other of the over 11,000 Lhasas already in the database that I work with when doing these searches.

I doubt I can find anything real closely related, but if we can find one or two good kennel names in her background that are still in operation we might find a source for a new puppy with at least some connection to your Katie.

As Debby said your best chance was with the person who sold you Katie and she should have kept records for every pup in Katie's litter.

I hope I will be able to help you.

Sincerely,
I sent him the pedigree for 3 generations for Katie. Will see what happens! Either way this is far further than I ever hoped to get.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf DOC130218.pdf (31.7 KB, 15 views)
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:22 PM   #14
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Research in Progress

The kind gentlemen researching Katie's family just forwarded this information. Attached is a picture of Katie's Great Grandfather which was a championship pup in 1988.

Quote:
Kent,

That was just what I needed to make some real progress.

Here is a PDF file of the 5 generation pedigree I have been able to create with the added information you just sent to me.
As a PDF file you should be able to easily enlarge it to read it better.

You mentioned that Ch Anbara Jazz-Ma-Tazz Of Claret was your link to Tina's Charlotte Ohara. Here is a picture of Jazz from 1988 when he got his championship.

I found it in the July/August 1988 Lhasas Unlimited magazine inside the front cover. His call name was T.J. In 1988 he was owned and shown by:

Deborah Walsleben
Claret Lhasa Apsos
7 Claret Ash
Littleton, CO 80127
(303) 973-0885.

The Anbara kennel name is a very good kennel name owned by Barbara Wood who I know is still very active in Lhasa Apsos. I would say if Ms. Walsleben has not moved and is still at the address I gave you she would be a very good place to start your search for another good Lhasa connected to your Katy through Anbara Jazz-Ma-Tazz of Claret. If she is not available then I would see what Barbara Wood might be able to do for you. If you need her address information I also have that.

With what you sent me it would not be all that necessary to spend the money for an official AKC pedigree unless you want the added information it provides.

I will continue my search which will be a bit slower from here to see what I can find closer to your Katie. If quality is important I would pursue the Anbara line of the pedigree.
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