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Old 06-04-2019, 06:30 PM   #29
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Sigh, so todayís feminists believe that women are victims, small and weak and in need of protection? Thatís a path straight back to the 50ís, and Iím not going back.

I choose what I can and cannot do. I choose to be whatever I want to be and if you think you can stop me, youíd better get out of the way.

Any conversation about protecting yourself when you are alone is not going to have a different answer based on your gender. It might be different if you are physically challenged. But not because of gender.
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Old 06-04-2019, 09:06 PM   #30
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Sigh, so todayís feminists believe that women are victims, small and weak and in need of protection? Thatís a path straight back to the 50ís, and Iím not going back.

I choose what I can and cannot do. I choose to be whatever I want to be and if you think you can stop me, youíd better get out of the way.

Any conversation about protecting yourself when you are alone is not going to have a different answer based on your gender. It might be different if you are physically challenged. But not because of gender.
Amen!
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Old 06-04-2019, 11:01 PM   #31
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It is definitely not my experience that men and women get in bar fights in equal numbers.

No? How much experience do you have with bars and bar fights?


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I guess "Why don't you pick on somebody your own size?" just came out of thin air and has never had any basis in reality over the many many years it's been in common usage.

That's a cool saying, but has absolutely nothing to do with my question. What do you think that word means? Maybe we're using the word in two different ways and talking past each other. What do you mean when you say a woman is "more vulnerable" than a man?
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Old 06-08-2019, 02:36 PM   #32
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No? How much experience do you have with bars and bar fights?
Are you actually claiming that in bar fights that are serious enough to constitute a reported crime, men and women are participants in equal numbers?
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:45 PM   #33
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Are you actually claiming that in bar fights that are serious enough to constitute a reported crime, men and women are participants in equal numbers?

No, I'm not. I'm asking you how much experience you have with bar fights because you claimed to have experience with them. Pretty much, this whole conversation, I've been asking you for some statistics or just the location of where you're getting your info, and you've continually refused to answer. If you don't have any data to use, then you can't claim that men and women get into bar fights in unequal numbers. You can't make any claims about bar fights.



You need data to support your claims. Seriously, you can't just throw out movie memes and expect people to take you seriously. The things you're talking about don't happen. Do you have any data that supports your idea that women are equal, but also need help and protection (thereby making them not equal)?
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Old 06-10-2019, 04:41 PM   #34
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If you don't have any data to use, then you can't claim that men and women get into bar fights in unequal numbers. You can't make any claims about bar fights.
If you're asking for data to support my contention that men get into bar fights more often than women, then I assume that you disagree and instead believe that as many women as men get into bar fights, which is why I specifically asked if that's what you think. You still haven't said what you think, which has to be one of three things: men get into bar fights more frequently than women, women get into bar fights more frequently than men, or women and men get into bar fights with equal frequency. Which is it? I'd truly like to know because it would provide insight into your thinking.

Plus, the only statistics you've cited are for crimes in general, and you can't take the percentages for crime in general and use them for percentages for specific types of crime...even though you said exactly that: "The general case covers your specific case because it is the general case." [Your emphasis.] Using your methodology, men are rape victims more often than women, and that's simply not true.

And that's been my contention all along--a general crime statistic is interesting, but it doesn't support your statement that women are safer than men, for the reason that there are elements of that general crime statistic that apply unequally to men and women. Rape is an obvious one.

And if you take out the what is obviously predominantly women, the men have to make up some ground with the rest of the violent crimes to maintain their status as more victimized, and I'm just trying to figure out where that might be, and determine whether it's likely that more men than women might be "participants" in the activity. Like a bar fight defending a woman's honor.

Or on the other side, like crimes against prostitutes. I would expect crimes against prostitutes to be higher among women than men simply because there are more of them, and secondarily, because they make attractive victims (for example, the assumption by a perpetrator that the prostitute's disappearance won't matter to anyone).

If I were forced to walk alone in a rest area but could choose who I'd rather look like, I'd pick Andre the Giant over Ruth Bader Ginsburg in a heartbeat, and would really like to know the thought process of someone who would pick the opposite.


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Do you have any data that supports your idea that women are equal, but also need help and protection (thereby making them not equal)?
I understand that's where you're trying to get with your argument, but I never said that.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:15 PM   #35
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If you're asking for data to support my contention that men get into bar fights more often than women, then I assume that you disagree and instead believe that as many women as men get into bar fights, which is why I specifically asked if that's what you think. You still haven't said what you think, which has to be one of three things: men get into bar fights more frequently than women, women get into bar fights more frequently than men, or women and men get into bar fights with equal frequency. Which is it? I'd truly like to know because it would provide insight into your thinking.
No, I actually don't have to believe any of those. One of those three is true, but I don't have to agree with any of them until I have evidence, which I don't have. You however claimed to have experience with bar fights. (More specifically, you claimed that men and women getting into bar fights equally isn't in your experience, which only implies that you have some experience with them, but eh a minor quibble.) I want to know how much experience you have.

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Plus, the only statistics you've cited are for crimes in general, and you can't take the percentages for crime in general and use them for percentages for specific types of crime...even though you said exactly that: "The general case covers your specific case because it is the general case." [Your emphasis.] Using your methodology, men are rape victims more often than women, and that's simply not true.
No, I've cited the FBI's crime statistics specifically for violent crimes, which includes all violent crimes. The general case of random violent crimes does, in fact, include the specific case of a violent physical attack of someone walking from their tow vehicle to their camper while alone in a rest area, because that is a random violent crime. If 90% of all crayons are made of wax, then there's a 90% chance that any random half used red crayon with a kid's bugger on it that was shoved into your car's seat is made of wax. That's how statistics works.

You're trying to twist what I actually said into something else by not including context. It was a wonderful job, but I saw through it.

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And that's been my contention all along--a general crime statistic is interesting, but it doesn't support your statement that women are safer than men, for the reason that there are elements of that general crime statistic that apply unequally to men and women. Rape is an obvious one.
Then you don't understand statistics. We both agree that all crime victims are not split exactly evenly between the genders. However, the total set of all violent crimes show that women are safer because men are more often the victims. That's literally what it means to be safer. If everyone else is more likely to be hurt, you're the safe one. People who are not women are more likely to be hurt than women, even when rape is included. Only when you look exclusively at rape can you make the argument that women are more at risk. When you look at all violent crime, women are safer. If you look at only stabbings, men are more at risk. If you look at only shootings, men are more at risk. If you look at only muggings, men are more at risk. If you look at only random parking lot attacks, men are more at risk.

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And if you take out the what is obviously predominantly women, the men have to make up some ground with the rest of the violent crimes to maintain their status as more victimized, and I'm just trying to figure out where that might be, and determine whether it's likely that more men than women might be "participants" in the activity. Like a bar fight defending a woman's honor.
Bar fights defending a woman's honor don't happen. That's an outdated movie trope. First of all, women in bars don't have honor. Those women are not worth fighting over. That's why they're at bars. They are looking for some strange... There's nothing to defend there. Second, as I pointed out earlier, people avoid bar fights at all costs because they end up in a hospital or in a jail cell.

Where do you live to think that bar fights happen with any kind of regularity? Seriously, why do you continue this movie trope BS?

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Or on the other side, like crimes against prostitutes. I would expect crimes against prostitutes to be higher among women than men simply because there are more of them, and secondarily, because they make attractive victims (for example, the assumption by a perpetrator that the prostitute's disappearance won't matter to anyone).
Yea. Most hookers are women. Violence against them is included in all violent crime statistics. Jack the Ripper was an absolutely horrible person. The FBI's crime statistics includes that and still shows men to be more likely to be attacked than women.

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If I were forced to walk alone in a rest area but could choose who I'd rather look like, I'd pick Andre the Giant over Ruth Bader Ginsburg in a heartbeat, and would really like to know the thought process of someone who would pick the opposite.
This just shows your preference and fear. That's what I was talking about earlier. You're afraid and a fearless man makes you feel better. That's totally cool. You are allowed to do what makes you feel better. What will actually make you safer is a totally different story. Also notice that you're picking the most extreme case. Andre was hardly your average guy.

Taking a page from your book, I'd rather look like Rhonda Rousey than Don Knotts.

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I understand that's where you're trying to get with your argument, but I never said that.
So you don't think that men and women are equal? Or do you not think that women need help or protection? Cuz if you think both of those things, then you have nothing to object to in what I said.
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Old 06-10-2019, 10:12 PM   #36
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And if you take out the what is obviously predominantly women, the men have to make up some ground with the rest of the violent crimes to maintain their status as more victimized, and I'm just trying to figure out where that might be

I have to comment more about this, because it deserves a better response. Men make up the victims of violence everywhere else! Yes, women are raped more than men. Men aren't running around saying "Oh crap the women are catching up to us in being a victim! Someone stab me, quick! We have to catch up again!" Men just happen to be stabbed and left for dead significantly more than women. Men are also beaten and robbed more than women. Attacks against the homeless are almost exclusively against men because the homeless are almost exclusively men. Car jacking victims are more often men. Random gang initiation violence is more often against men. Assassination targets are far more often men. (If you want to include war, the victims of war are men. Heck, if you include war, then men are the vast majority of violence victims and women don't hold a candle to it.) The victims of workplace violence and fatalities are men. Young boys are yelled at and physically disciplined by their caretakers (who are typically women) far more than young girls. Men are the victims of violence more often than women for their whole lives.
Violence virtually always favors men, except in one area. That's the only area you want to consider just so you can try and say that men are safer than women. You're literally trying to ignore all of the statistics in order to point out one small area where women are the victim more often and then claim that women are so unsafe and need protection from the big strong men. Do you have no shame?
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Old 06-10-2019, 10:17 PM   #37
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I understand that's where you're trying to get with your argument, but I never said that.


Actually, itís exactly what youíre saying.
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:35 AM   #38
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Old 06-14-2019, 10:33 AM   #39
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(More specifically, you claimed that men and women getting into bar fights equally isn't in your experience, which only implies that you have some experience with them, but eh a minor quibble.) I want to know how much experience you have.
I don't know a single woman who has ever been in a bar fight. On the other hand, within the past six months, three men I know in their early- to mid-20s have been in bar fights. The only reason I knew was because they had injuries that bore discussion ("What happened to your eye?"), and they explained how they got them, and all three times the answer was, and this is an exact quote: "Bar fight."

I suspect their youth, and no doubt alcohol, had more to do with the fight than their essential character, because by any other measure they are upstanding citizens. Be that as it may, they got into bar fights, and they are as far from the "movie trope" type of people one would expect to be in bar fights as you can get.


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Bar fights defending a woman's honor don't happen. That's an outdated movie trope.
And as it turns out, one of them actually said he was defending a woman's honor. He's the one whose car I was sitting in once and looking for something to read, and happened upon a Women's Studies college textbook. I read a few chapters, and when he got back, I asked him about it and he explained that he was the TA for the class.


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First of all, women in bars don't have honor. Those women are not worth fighting over. That's why they're at bars. They are looking for some strange... There's nothing to defend there.
Holy cow. I think that's pretty much all I need to know.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:41 PM   #40
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I don't know a single woman who has ever been in a bar fight. On the other hand, within the past six months, three men I know in their early- to mid-20s have been in bar fights. The only reason I knew was because they had injuries that bore discussion ("What happened to your eye?"), and they explained how they got them, and all three times the answer was, and this is an exact quote: "Bar fight."

I would also like to point out that those three alleged bar fights would not be included in the FBI's statistics because they guys weren't arrested or sent to the hospital. There wouldn't be anything to report from a LEO perspective. A bar that calls the cops over a fight only to have no injuries or fighting when the cops show up doesn't actually have any enforceable violation to report.
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:46 PM   #41
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I would also like to point out that those three alleged bar fights would not be included in the FBI's statistics because they guys weren't arrested or sent to the hospital. There wouldn't be anything to report from a LEO perspective. A bar that calls the cops over a fight only to have no injuries or fighting when the cops show up doesn't actually have any enforceable violation to report.
Ok, I'll bite. Bar fight, Bob punches Tom. How is Bob not arrested for assault and battery upon Tom?
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:09 PM   #42
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The only thing I could add is: I know no woman that can analyze and fix all the crap that breaks on our poorly built RVs. Some men can.
I bought a new 5er and PU for my sister in law. She can drive and set it up by herself. But fixing, No.
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