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spike45 02-14-2012 07:41 PM

Determination of Dust Ingestion on Diesel Engines
 
I have posted on my photo website a picture album with captions showing what to look for if you suspect your engine is being dusted. I do realize that on many MH chassis the air cleaner system is very difficult to access. If you have any reason to have the clean air piping off from the air cleaner to the turbocharger inlet refer to these photos as a reference of a dusting taking place. I collected these photos over the years as a field service engineer for Cummins Filtraton (Fleetguard filters), a division of Cummins Inc. I have set the album so you may download the pictures to print.

Here is the site: Zenfolio | http://spiresart.zenfolio.com/ | Diesel Intake Dust Ingestion

Gary Spires
Spike45
Retired Fleetguard Service Engineer

sc3283 02-14-2012 10:47 PM

I have to wonder...why is installing an air filter "correctly" such a difficult task for RV repair folks??? I am amazed at how many complain of "dusted" engines. I realize some can be challenging to replace...but what happened to the adage "Do it right or not at all"? I have been in the auto repair industry all my life and I'm still yet to see a "dusted" auto engine

Mr_D 02-14-2012 10:59 PM

Gary:
I have an ISC with Banks. New filter shows 15" of water on the meter when driven normally. Pushing it puts the meter up to 22". I have the small Ecolite (6" inlet 6" outlet, 9½" diam, 24" long, 1200 CFM @ 8" of water). What's the best way to upgrade my filter?
Larger Ecolite (would take new 7" intake and outlet plumbing)
AFE filter
K&N, not their oiled one but the new dry big rig filter
Or ????

USMCRET 02-15-2012 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sc3283 (Post 1084487)
I have to wonder...why is installing an air filter "correctly" such a difficult task for RV repair folks??? I am amazed at how many complain of "dusted" engines. I realize some can be challenging to replace...but what happened to the adage "Do it right or not at all"? I have been in the auto repair industry all my life and I'm still yet to see a "dusted" auto engine

I also would like to know more about this. My filter is due to be changed and I like doing things myself, but all this talk of dusted engines from improper installations is not giving me a warm fuzzy.

How are these installations screwed up?

spike45 02-15-2012 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_D (Post 1084492)
Gary:
I have an ISC with Banks. New filter shows 15" of water on the meter when driven normally. Pushing it puts the meter up to 22". I have the small Ecolite (6" inlet 6" outlet, 9½" diam, 24" long, 1200 CFM @ 8" of water). What's the best way to upgrade my filter?
Larger Ecolite (would take new 7" intake and outlet plumbing)
AFE filter
K&N, not their oiled one but the new dry big rig filter
Or ????

Mr D,

There is no silver bullet for your situation. Given the restrictions of your present piping size and space for an air cleaner, your choices are:
  1. More air but not as clean.....the AFE or K&N
  2. Install larger piping, boots and elbows and install a larger air cleaner housing capable of ?? CFM....how much air does Banks say it is pumping?
The easiest method may be to install a pair of the 9 x 24 but there are 11 x 24 available from Farr. You would have to install them parallel plus you should still increase the piping from the air cleaner(s) to the turbo inlet to around 8" piping. I saw how an E-One fire truck had installed the Farr Ecolite on a 450 ISL. They used the miniscule 9 x 24 then reduced the outlet down to a 4 inch pipe that ran 5 feet into a 180 degree U turn into the turbo....talk about a restricted inlet! The restriction gauge on that setup could not record the high inlet restriction that occurred at the turbo. The correct way is to have large diameter long pipe runs then reduce down as close to the turbo inlet as possible.

Does your MH have a bumper sticker that says...."So Many CATs, So Little Time!" :)

spike45 02-15-2012 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCRET (Post 1084956)
I also would like to know more about this. My filter is due to be changed and I like doing things myself, but all this talk of dusted engines from improper installations is not giving me a warm fuzzy.

How are these installations screwed up?

USMCRET,

Thank you for your service to our country! I wish I could say take it to a truck shop but that advice is not what it used to be. The key issue with changing what I think you have is a Farr Ecolite disposable housing air filter.....the key issue is...getting the clean air outlet boot onto the housing squarely and the steel worm-drive hose clamp correctly installed. The hose clamp has to go back onto the hose in the same position it was in before removal. You should be able to see the imprint of the clamp in the hose. Tighten the clamp to no more than 90 lbs -inch with a suitable torque wrench. That is NOT 90 lbs-Ft....that clamp would break before you got it that tight. Failure to get the outlet boot squarely on the housing clean air outlet will result in a dust entry point that could prove to be fatal to the engine. There are better air cleaner housings on the market that have replaceable elements so you do not have to remove piping boots and elbows. MH chassis manufacturers chose the easy way vs the best way, in my opinion, to install an air cleaner. The Farr Ecolite units are compact and carry a high CFM rating which I really doubt they can achieve that for long as the dust builds up. The ISL 450 inhales 950 CFM. The ISX 575 (15 liters) only needs about 100 CFM more than the ISL! Clearly, the ISL air cleaner system is too small to be effective at cleaning the air as the velocity of the air through the paper is too high. In the filter business we call it 'face velocity'. At high flow rates the dirt is driven through the paper such that the paper cannot trap the particles. This is believed to be the major cause of dusting on ISL with this type of air cleaner. I have inspected several engines where we could find no dust entry point from piping or boot connection problems. Still the engine showed signs of dust per the picture album I posted a link to. Dust on the upstream ridges of the charge air cooler hose connection (first pic).

Mr_D 02-15-2012 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spike45 (Post 1085081)
Mr D,

There is no silver bullet for your situation. Given the restrictions of your present piping size and space for an air cleaner, your choices are:
  1. More air but not as clean.....the AFE or K&N
  2. Install larger piping, boots and elbows and install a larger air cleaner housing capable of ?? CFM....how much air does Banks say it is pumping?
The easiest method may be to install a pair of the 9 x 24 but there are 11 x 24 available from Farr. You would have to install them parallel plus you should still increase the piping from the air cleaner(s) to the turbo inlet to around 8" piping. I saw how an E-One fire truck had installed the Farr Ecolite on a 450 ISL. They used the miniscule 9 x 24 then reduced the outlet down to a 4 inch pipe that ran 5 feet into a 180 degree U turn into the turbo....talk about a restricted inlet! The restriction gauge on that setup could not record the high inlet restriction that occurred at the turbo. The correct way is to have large diameter long pipe runs then reduce down as close to the turbo inlet as possible.

Does your MH have a bumper sticker that says...."So Many CATs, So Little Time!" :)

Thanks for the answer!! Really appreciate the expert help!

I measured the clearance and I can squeeze in a 13.5 X 24, but that would require new inlet and outlet and a reducer into the turbo (there's one there anyway from 6" to 4"?) That would give me 1650 cfm @ 8" of water. But I think there's room for a double 11 X 24 too. Would have to cobble up a Y and a mount too. Might be easier than going up in filter size and redoing the inlet. In fact, I'd have to cobble up a Y on the upstream end too as the filter draws from a plenium up near the roof. Might even have to open up the inlet there too.
I emailed Banks for more info over a week ago and never got an answer. Time to call I guess! I do know it has a larger turbo housing as I installed it and now gives 34-35 psi rather than 24-25.
I'd really like to stay with the Ecolite as I know it meets Cummins dust specs, just not the flow that it now needs.

No, we take all seven cats with us!! (Yah, I know, that's not the type of CAT you're referring too!!). But we actually do have seven cats and take them with us.

USMCRET 02-16-2012 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spike45 (Post 1085110)
USMCRET,

Thank you for your service to our country! I wish I could say take it to a truck shop but that advice is not what it used to be. The key issue with changing what I think you have is a Farr Ecolite disposable housing air filter.....the key issue is...getting the clean air outlet boot onto the housing squarely and the steel worm-drive hose clamp correctly installed. The hose clamp has to go back onto the hose in the same position it was in before removal. You should be able to see the imprint of the clamp in the hose. Tighten the clamp to no more than 90 lbs -inch with a suitable torque wrench. That is NOT 90 lbs-Ft....that clamp would break before you got it that tight. Failure to get the outlet boot squarely on the housing clean air outlet will result in a dust entry point that could prove to be fatal to the engine. There are better air cleaner housings on the market that have replaceable elements so you do not have to remove piping boots and elbows. MH chassis manufacturers chose the easy way vs the best way, in my opinion, to install an air cleaner. The Farr Ecolite units are compact and carry a high CFM rating which I really doubt they can achieve that for long as the dust builds up. The ISL 450 inhales 950 CFM. The ISX 575 (15 liters) only needs about 100 CFM more than the ISL! Clearly, the ISL air cleaner system is too small to be effective at cleaning the air as the velocity of the air through the paper is too high. In the filter business we call it 'face velocity'. At high flow rates the dirt is driven through the paper such that the paper cannot trap the particles. This is believed to be the major cause of dusting on ISL with this type of air cleaner. I have inspected several engines where we could find no dust entry point from piping or boot connection problems. Still the engine showed signs of dust per the picture album I posted a link to. Dust on the upstream ridges of the charge air cooler hose connection (first pic).

Perfect example of why I think this board is superior to others. Thank you so much for that informative post. This helps a lot.

USMCRET 02-27-2012 07:46 AM

Spike, who would I go to to find a replacement outlet boot? Would that be Cummins or the motorhome manuf? How long do you think these boots are good for?

Happycarz 02-27-2012 01:54 PM

Intakehoses.com

spike45 02-27-2012 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCRET (Post 1096651)
Spike, who would I go to to find a replacement outlet boot? Would that be Cummins or the motorhome manuf? How long do you think these boots are good for?

Most if not all large truck dealer parts departments stock or can get boots and connectors including reducers. Cummins is too high priced on their stuff!

bobrw9 07-04-2012 01:48 PM

The Farr Ecolite is gone and a new Optiair 1300 is installed.
When my lady asked me why I was changing all those things on the engine I used Gary Spires as my excuse.
He told me to do it, I told her, because it was a good thing to do and how could I argue with that kind of logic.
In past post’s, Gary has explained that the Farr Ecolite air filter does not meet the requirements for filtered input air if you live in the southwest dusty areas.
I live in Palm Desert, Ca. A lot of blowing dust most of the year.
It looked like a good winter project and it would be a good thing for my LSI 400.
See the photos -- https://picasaweb.google.com/116741415598404573654/ANewOptiair1300AirFilterForMyISL400?authuser=0&aut hkey=Gv1sRgCOvTjr789LG54gE&feat=directlink
It took a lot of thinken and figuren and finding all the parts but in the end my engine will think me for it.
Had to move the water tank over to make room for the 1300 and that exposed a very nice mounting post for the filter mount in just the right location.
The original “factory” hole from the side air intake box was only four inches in diameter. It’s now a full eight inches all the way to the new filter and then I flared the input ends of the three metal tubes for a smoother flow of air.
Not much air flow restriction around here anymore.
Every things up and running and yes Gary, I torqued the clamps, blocked the air intake and WD-40ed all the joints.
It’s as tight as a tick at a nudist camp out.
The new filter was three inches too long or the coach is three inches too short so the rear door had to be adjusted.
The door with its new “thingy” doesn’t look toooo very bad.
It’s a three inch wide 1/8 inch steel circle I had rolled at a machine shop and I capped it with a sixteen inch mooney hubcap.
It gives the folks passing me something to wonder about.
I did all the work with the exception of the $20 steel ring from the machine shop.
About the only special tools needed was a $100 flux wire welder and a right angle grinder for cutting/grinding the 1/8 inch steel, a in/lb. torque wrench and an air driven palm nail driver to flare out the tube ends .
A very satisfying and worthwhile project at less than $800 plus the tools.
Thanks Gary for the wise counsel and good words, you’re the man.
PS, Happy retirement and don’t forget to stay busy. I have been retired for 21 years now and dreaming up stuff to do is the key.

TheArnolds 07-04-2012 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spike45 (Post 1084372)
I have posted on my photo website a picture album with captions showing what to look for if you suspect your engine is being dusted. I do realize that on many MH chassis the air cleaner system is very difficult to access. If you have any reason to have the clean air piping off from the air cleaner to the turbocharger inlet refer to these photos as a reference of a dusting taking place. I collected these photos over the years as a field service engineer for Cummins Filtraton (Fleetguard filters), a division of Cummins Inc. I have set the album so you may download the pictures to print.

Here is the site: Zenfolio | http://spiresart.zenfolio.com/ | Diesel Intake Dust Ingestion

Gary Spires
Spike45
Retired Fleetguard Service Engineer

First off I am new to diesel engines and as I read through all of these posts and I do not understand the term "dusted"? I see the dust in the hoses in the photos's but I am not sure as to the cause? Did the hose come off? Was the filter some how installed incorrectly? Did the filter fail? Thanks in advance for my education!

Hooligan 07-04-2012 09:11 PM

Diesel engines draw in a huge amount of air, and are very susceptible to rapid internal wear from dust ingestion. His photos show dust inside the hoses from several possible causes. (Installation of the filter or hose connections, borderline filter capacity or deterioration, etc.)
Long discussion in this thread that originally went with the photos.
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/dust...-111294-2.html


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