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-   -   ISX problems again? (http://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/isx-problems-again-420406.html)

Mr_D 11-19-2018 10:46 AM

ISX problems again?
 
Just had an oil sample run. The iron went from 103 to 207 ppm, Chromium from 1 to 3 ppm and Silicon from 47 to 50 ppm.
These readings are about as high as they were 2,500 miles before it dropped the intake valve back in 2015.
Now I'm trying to decide if I should take it in and have it redone again. Cummins has released a third new head, valves and even pistons for the valve breaking problems and I'm running out of patience (and money) to fix their mistakes!

TomandGloria 11-19-2018 05:08 PM

Man, this has got to be a major disappointment. I’ve followed your plight since you bought this coach. Hoping this is something Cummins will step up and cover for you if that valve goes south.

tom chelbana 11-19-2018 07:10 PM

These reading are indicating bearing and camshaft problems if that is what I remember from our racing days. Would think another oil change with a oil sample check after 1,000 miles would be my suggestion. We have the new version of ISX that being X15 and hope we don't have the issues you have had. This is one of the most read post on irv2 the last 2 years. Hope things get better on next sample.
Nemar Man

1doodadd 11-19-2018 07:11 PM

Keep on the forum for the needed 100 signatures for the class action law suit. As stated above I am sorry to hear your pain

Mark D 11-19-2018 07:32 PM

Mr. D we are on our winter trip with ours. One note from my wife is that the rear bathroom is much cooler.

I did have a new EGR cooler installed not sure if that helps with the erosion.

There is a way to look into the head to inspect the valve. I would assume acid erosion would be noticeable but the chordal crack wouldn't unless it's just ready to break. Not sure but it may be worth looking into.

Mr_D 11-19-2018 10:11 PM

I'm going to call Cummins in Coburg OR after Thanksgiving and ask their advice. I doubt there is any way to see acid erosion since that's on the intake side towards the head. You'd need to come in through the intake manifold.

Mark D 11-20-2018 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_D (Post 4507612)
I'm going to call Cummins in Coburg OR after Thanksgiving and ask their advice. I doubt there is any way to see acid erosion since that's on the intake side towards the head. You'd need to come in through the intake manifold.

On the TSB that's one method to determine the failure so there is a way to do it. I did pay $4,500 +/- for an updated head. The labor is what is the moving target. I had a bunch of other things done due to the failure and as a PM so it's hard to get a true number. I am thinking 10k would be a low estimate.

Maybe dig out the paperwork and they will have the part number for the head? See if it's the latest? Also you may have shell shock due to the first failure and a normal item seems like a huge failure.

Unplanned 11-20-2018 06:55 AM

A top end set may show up a pending problem. If one valve is tight or loose and all others are good, a closer look is warranted.
Good luck and Happy Glamping.

Mr_D 11-20-2018 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark D (Post 4507810)
On the TSB that's one method to determine the failure so there is a way to do it. I did pay $4,500 +/- for an updated head. The labor is what is the moving target. I had a bunch of other things done due to the failure and as a PM so it's hard to get a true number. I am thinking 10k would be a low estimate.

Maybe dig out the paperwork and they will have the part number for the head? See if it's the latest? Also you may have shell shock due to the first failure and a normal item seems like a huge failure.

The head I have is part # 4331387 with a release date of Aug 6 2014. The latest is #5413782 released Sept 2016. Since mine was rebuilt the second time in May 2015 there is no way I have the latest parts.
I know of one that went to about $40,000 cdn and another premptive rebuild that went $25,000 usd.

Doing more reading I see that another clue is VGT errors and I did get those this last time out but I don't have a miss or check engine light.

Smitty77 11-20-2018 11:06 AM

Mr D - OUCH!!! And sure hope it is a lessor problem this time around.

That being said, has Cummins Corporate continued to circle the wagon's on this obvious design problem? They sold an engine to coach manufactures for RV duty, that seems to have a high volume of failure.

I've said this before, and repeat it for Cummins PR that I hope reads forums, that the Cummins Culture of which their legacy was built - would have stood up and done the right thing. Recall these engines, and cover the costs of replacing the defective parts with redesigned components.

I would also expect a failing valve, could impact Smog related regulations. After all, Intake is as much apart of the total Smog Controls, as the Exhaust side. That is more serious lever that should be brought into play.

I also wonder how Cummins Corporate would respond to a few Action News like stories covering this issue. A 60 Minutes coverage of the financial impact to owners, as well as safety to these owners and those driving around them - should also get their attention. (Safety issue, as a dropped valve, taking out an engine, going down the road. Is a safety concern. Slowing down and stopping in the wrong locations of a highway, is a danger to occupants of the vehicle in question - and those around them due to the ripple effect. How many millions of dollars in damages from an accident that hurts, or takes life, due to a failed ISX from a known Cummins Design Problem?

Mr D - Again my fingers are crossed for you. And I only semi joke, that a Go Fund My ISX Rebuild - would be a fund I would chip into. (And again, just the press of consumer's needing to do this, would be an embarrassment to Cummins!).

Best to you, and all,
Smitty

And note: I've probably been in at least 5 different Cummins repair centers in the last 7 years. The staff are almost always top notch, and I've only had one problem with one tech, who power washed my radiator stack instead of the Steam Cleaning that they said they would do for me. (Bent some fins, and he said not to worry about it, that power washing was faster way to clean it, so was saving me money on labor. We worked that issue out in the office with the Service Manager:)!) My point, is the few I've asked about the ISX, are embarrassed...

dennis45 11-20-2018 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unplanned (Post 4507839)
A top end set may show up a pending problem. If one valve is tight or loose and all others are good, a closer look is warranted.
Good luck and Happy Glamping.

Wow, Mr. D, I don't know what to say.
I agree with Unplanned. Before you go too far, a valve set might save a disaster.

Mr_D 11-20-2018 11:31 AM

Last time out I did get a "check engine" light but thought it was the low coolant warning which I can ignore for now. But thinking back and looking at the codes on my VMS I'm seeing a VGT error, which is listed as one of the signs of a valve failure.

Going to be doing some research over the long weekend!

Mark D 11-21-2018 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_D (Post 4507968)
The head I have is part # 4331387 with a release date of Aug 6 2014. The latest is #5413782 released Sept 2016. Since mine was rebuilt the second time in May 2015 there is no way I have the latest parts.
I know of one that went to about $40,000 cdn and another premptive rebuild that went $25,000 usd.

Doing more reading I see that another clue is VGT errors and I did get those this last time out but I don't have a miss or check engine light.

I have the latest head which I triple checked. It was a remanufactured head by Cummins so it did have new style valves, seats and castings. It does run slightly better but it runs cooler by 10 deg.

Cummins charged me just under 16k for pars and just under 10k for labor.

For parts I did have a new turbo, rebuilt head, new injector, piston and sleeve in #6, new EGR cooler a new cam shaft gear, oil pan gasket etc. Plus I had them service the fan system, oil and belts. I think the parts would have been 7 or 8k less if it wasn't a failure.

Labor side the had to replace the turbo, put it back together run it, swap injectors, pull the pan and inspect bearings etc. This was due to the codes. They also had to deal with the rear structure, cut it out and then reinstall. I think the labor would have been 5 or 6 k.

All in all by the sounds of it this Cummins shop must have given me a fair labor cost. But each coach is different, what takes 1 hour on one may take 5 on another so the labor is a moving target. The warranty firm gave me 18k towards the repair, they based that on labor to pull the head and commercially rebuilt items. I only wanted Cummins so if I had a failure I could go to any Cummins shop and get it fixed with their coverage. So I paid 7k for an updated head, turbo and EGR cooler.

Now to your problem, I didn't get any codes / check engine until the failure. Sounds like you have a reluctant plan to move forward so all I can say if be cautiously optimistic.

Also do you know the changes Cummins made from the head you have to the newest style?

Mr_D 11-21-2018 09:54 AM

Mark:
I have no idea what changes Cummins made to the head over the last couple years.
I'm figuring at least $25,000 if I do a preemptive rebuild.
I am planning on selling the house next year and going full time and I'd really like the MH to be reliable!


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