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Old 11-21-2018, 06:13 PM   #15
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Turbo

That may be a part of it. However, there are other faults which indicate other problems. You may be right, but both Spartan and the local techs at this time feel that the problem is communicating accurate information to whatever EMS or EMSes are processing the information, or the EMSes being able to process the data accurately internally (the EMS or EMSes are faulty). I, personally, don't care.... I just am anxious to get it understood and back on my way. And the diagnostic software that supposedly will figure it out, is not a common software, and it is not held by all, or many, Spartan or Cummins repair facilities, and even if the facility has it, the people that need to use it are unfamiliar with it. The only people that think they understand all of this are the Customer Service people for WABCO and they need data which few seem able to give them. The ToolBox software is used to diagnose trailer braking problems, onGuardACTIVE, and 3 or 4 other Wabco Products.

I would really be relieved if the problem was as simple as that.... as I think it would be easily resolved. And Spartan and Wabco are not about sending a RADAR unit to me and cable assemblies to get me going, unless there is conclusive proof that indicates it is the only problem.

Gary
Sorry I know nothing about Spartan chassis but I do know nothing drives ECU over the edge like a wheel speed sensor failure. Throughs errors everywhere because so many subsystems use this information.

In the Newmar New Aire we have all chassis data captured in the SilverLeaf system so it is pretty easy to read and interpret the errors for debugging. We have had several wheel sensor errors reported by owners.
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Old 11-21-2018, 06:41 PM   #16
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Different manufacturers with many different systems.
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Old 11-22-2018, 05:25 AM   #17
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Gary, with the limited experience I have had with reprogramming the dash. http://www.irv2.com/forums/f278/a-sh...ml#post4487608
My dash almost crashed when the "Toolbox" was connected to clear the legitimate code. You are correct, the experience is not there yet to correct computer errors, even at Spartan. I also worked with Shane and Dave.

Reading post #1 over again with all the "ACC Defeated" and I then get a CMS Fault indication (goes amber) and the CMS says it has crashed (but in fact the CMS system is still working, but OFCCC does not work and ACC does not work)
I wonder with all the tweaking and trying to over ride the systems if the dash computer just didn't finally crash? In my situation, it didn't take much. If so, hopefully it will be a simple reprogram and you can be on your way. From my experience, the shop, Spartan, or Meritor (software company) did not know to shut the engine off and reboot 12V power after a setting has been changed before it will take effect. See linked post. Might not be all the time, but it worked with my error messages after everything was shut down for the night. I hope yours will be a reset with the correct software and everything will be good to go. Good luck.

For others that may need digital dash service (fault codes) the software required is Meritor Toolbox version 12 or higher. If the shop called for service does not have it, don't go there, they can't do a thing.
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Old 11-22-2018, 06:11 AM   #18
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This is a brief update. I will do this more extensively in the future. However, in brief:

On my way back from Jamestown to PA, the OnGuard system failed completely. Literally 6 or 8 different fault codes and a complete crash of the system. Many of the fault codes are things like "RADAR SHUTDOWN", "Missing data from transmission", "Un-anticapated variability in wheel speed data" (the speedometer was moving from 62 mph to 0 mph and back to 62 mph in 5 seconds. Then the transmission started to really shift very hard, and worse, the Cummins began to pulse in power when climbing hills. Talking to Spartan the entire time, and they say that the the faults will not cause a red engine shut down CEL, but the failure of the entire system made it difficult to travel. Spartan's advice was to get quickly to a facility that had "Toolbox" software and try to figure out what is going on. So, I diverted from my intended path and headed to Hagerstown (Spartan has NO facilities anywhere near DC to deal with these sorts of issues). Limped into Hagerstown and my customer contact at Spartan is a great guy (Dave and Shane) and put one of their high level techs on line with Hagerstown repair center. However, it appears that they don't have the correct version of ToolKit and will have to get it, so after 2 days at the dealer, I have now moved to an RV park and I am essentially "dead in the water" at least until Monday (5 days from now) and even then, if the software is correct and updated, then still will need to decide if the problem is the RADAR unit and RADAR-CPU alone, or if it is a problem in a wiring bundle. In any case, at best, they will figure out the problem by Monday and then order in a RADAR unit to be delivered to Hagerstown (overnight?) and then the repair. I am girded for this repair to be from 7 to 10 days stuck on the road broken down. I am not optimistic I will be stranded only 7 days.. I think it easily could be 10 to 14 days stranded. This also follows a day at a Freightliner repair facility getting Cummins engine updates (5 or 6 updates (bug fixes))

I am TRUELY AMAZED! A 5 month old coach and I am stranded on the road for a week to a week and a half because we can't figure out what is wrong, or how to fix it, or what needs to be fixed. This has been a trip from hell. These coaches incorporate sophisticated devices that are connected into an amazing array of other systems (why would a failed RADAR system cause my Cummins to pulse, or my speedometer to fail to track speed accurately, and even cause the inverters to not accurately show what they are doing (I have to reboot the system after the engine is running to get the inverters/chargers to charge correctly??????????????????????????? )), but all of those things are the case. Technology has gone too far...............It exceeds our knowledge! --- ---

Gary

Have you tried rebooting the chassis batteries? Shut everything down, inverters and all 12 volt systems, disconnect from shore power and then shut the chassis batteries off. Let it sit for 15 minutes and re-energize starting with the chassis batteries then the shore power and turn on the inverters.
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Old 11-22-2018, 06:21 AM   #19
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Your experience is what I am now experiencing but more extensive. But your conclusions and experiences are identical to mine, and your finding that it takes a coach reboot to get anything to take hold is what I discovered also. If I got faults, then they would not clear or reset themselves unless both the engine ignition and dash were turned off AND the coach 12 volt power also removed via the salesman power switch. My experience is that it all has to be shut down for ~ 30 seconds to do any good.

I have heard of King Air's problems too from my talks with Dave and Shane at Spartan so I knew that they were having problems also (they have the same Wabco system we have). I guess the old saying, misery loves company applies, but it is good to know that other owners are grappling with this because the more attention that is directed in this area, the more quickly everyone is going to come up to speed and experience is going to start establishing more real understanding of these systems. In all these guys defense, they are dealing with systems and issues that they have never encountered before. They are learning through our problems. I have found WABCO's tech people to be very accomodating, but they cant do anything definitive without knowing what the Toolbox software will tell them, and few places have the current version of the software that will tell them anything.

What I am most amazed at is how a problem in the OnGuard RADAR system seems to be integrated and impact so many completely different systems on the coach. The most unsettling thing that I experienced is the very rapid surging/pulsing (or was it very rapid braking of the coach? ABS faulting?) when I was driving with the whole system defaulted and climbing medium grade hills. The coach would begin to labor and then downshift to 5th, but then at higher revs in 5th, the engine would begin to pulse very quickly (little mini surges, or alternately, little mini-brake ABS "taps", and the Cummins did better laboring up in 6th gear than it did at good revs in 5th. Very strange feeling! I also suspicion that in this whole deal and now for maybe 500 miles, my Cummins has had its torque lessened..... Acceleration or speed increases seems to be much slower and less impressive than when I first got this big 605 engine.... I wonder if it has been de-rated for a long time without me being notified of it, but throughout all the problems that I have been having for the past month. I really wonder!

My shop has ToolBox (a $299 software item sold by Meritor and Snap-On, I have discovered)(More on that later), but their version is 2014. My understanding is that software must be 2016 or later to have what needs to be had for our OnGuard systems (There is an earlier OnGuardACTIVE system that is not our system but was apparently introduced in 2014) but the 2014 software does not do the trick). So, they tried to update their software yesterday but was trying to do it yesterday afternoon, and enough Thanksgiving office parties were underway either at SnapOn or Wabco that in an hours trying, they never found a way to pay for the software and update it. So, no Joy, and now of course I am waiting for a 5 days weekend (this country has entirely too damn many holidays that are single days that have turned into week long excuses not to work....... ------). And my serious problems always seem to occur over one of those too frequent 5 day weekend holidays!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyhow, I now know that there is a terminating resistor right beside the RADAR unit in the generator compartment. You can remove that terminating resistor (its in its own holder), and then under the dash, to the left of the steering post, there is the connector and wire bundle (that I think is the J13??? trunk bus that carries all the signals from all the connected equipment) that brings all the signals into the Valid dash, and you can break that connection by the steering post, and insert the terminating resistor into the coach side of that line, and that completely eliminates the RADAR wire bundle and the RADAR electronics and circuit boards (which is a good thing), but then the entire Valid Digital dash gets no data at all.... the "dials" are there but they have no values; no speedometer, no tachometer, no fuel gauge, etc. BUT when that was done, the Cummins started to Hummmm again, and the really hard shifts of the Allison went away. I could drive the coach with the system changed this way, but if the engine threw a serious shut down fault, I would never see it and potentially cause major damage, so at that point, I threw in the towel and said I have no choice but to sit here until the techs get it figured out, thus the retreat to an RV park a couple miles away. I can't safely drive the coach with the RADAR module inserted and I can't drive it safely with the module removed.

So, we are pretty sure that it is the RADAR unit itself that is screwing all of this up, but Spartan and Meritor would not send me a replacement unit to get me going and see if it resolved the problem, because although all logic argued that it was a defective RADAR unit, they could not rule out that it wasn't a problem in a wiring harness. The codes that the Toolbox software can supposedly read supposedly will tell the techs at WABCO and locally which of the problems it is. If it is the RADAR unit itself, they will ship me one. If it is the wiring bundle, then the wiring bundle is supposedly a Spartan deal or an Entegra deal, and it will likely boil down to tracing each wire and examining connectors/connections, wire resistance, wire lugs, etc etc of that whole bus until they find the problem. I spent 12 hours at a Freightliner shop which did the engine ECM updates and the tech dealt with the engine/transmission end of the wire harness. I THINK that all of the communications for the engine, tranny, wheels, etc is carried by a different bus system called something like the J13XXX bus. I don't remember all the numbers (but that bus system come up on the digital dash where it shows Spartan SPN fault codes also), but that is what feeds into the RADAR moduile and the local guess is that if the RADAR electronics/ECM is not defective, then it is going to be in wiring/grounding/etc in the J13???? bus trunk line somewhere.

So, I sit until we can make progress on Monday but I would be surprised if we get back underway before mid week or later.

That's what I know. We're all learning.

Gary
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Old 11-22-2018, 07:07 AM   #20
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I think you must have posted while I was working on my summary.... as I did not see it before I started typing.

The answer to your question is: No, I did not shut down everything. This all has happened while I have been driving so some of those systems had no power. But specifically, I HAVE shut down the Cummins and Ignition, and also simultaneously shut down the coach but all of that for maybe at most 5 minutes. I have not shut down the engine start batteries or killed all the power switches and relays down in the basement in addition.

Now, no one at Spartan or Wabco has ever suggested that I do any of that... I told them that I accidentally discovered that I needed to shut down the house to get any resets at all, and it was brand new information to them. They wrote that down. Spartan knows their chassis.. they have little information on what Entegra does to their chassis after they ship it to them.... or at least that is their official position on the issue.... "Well, we have no idea what Entegra did in that regard ......... you need to call them" is the stock recommendation.

I certainly can give that a try.... at this point.... my Valid digital dash is sitting there looking pretty but conveying no useful information to the driver and we are waiting for working ToolBox software .....

But thanks for that suggestion. when I get something that partially works again, I will give that a try. Makes a lot of sense.

Gary
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Old 11-22-2018, 07:29 AM   #21
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One more thing. I heard words in this discussion with Wabco that I have not heard since maybe the mid-1980s.... an active discussion of "baud rate".... the rate that digital communications are transmitted down a trunk line. I used to have a 300 baud acoustic modem what would let me transmit laboratory research data to the University main frame computer at 300 baud. Some of you old enough to remember 300 baud modems???? I would start uploading files one afternoon and they might be finished the next morning at 300 baud.... "doo deee doooo deee dooo dee" acoustic signals... those were the good old days....

Anyhow, my memory is that the bus could be at 500 baud or maybe at 1000 baud and the local techs literally had no idea what that meant.... even the 20 year old that could load and navigate the old 2014 software (these guys fix trucks and engines..... they are not software engineers or techs, yet that is now the role that they are being expected to play with the help of the Wabco software techs who themselves probably don't know one end of an afterprocessing diesel particulate filter from the other end either). Of course, I was clueless also, but my locals guys had told me there were no codes set two weeks ago when I was here the first time.... and it is pretty clear that there were codes set, but the old software and wrong baud rate showed no codes which were interpreted to mean, there were really no codes (but of course, there were codes but the software could not read them)....... ................. Technology

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Old 11-22-2018, 07:38 AM   #22
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One more thing. WABCO and Meritor used to be the same company. Now they are separate. And you are wasting your time to communicate with Meritor as the OnGuard system and its entirety is not a Meritor product. Go directly to Wabco and forget Meritor on this one.... you just waste more time in phone trees and get nowhere.

Oh, here another amazing fact. When the fault codes are appearing on the dash and the J13XXX bus is probably going crazy, somehow all of this is also interfaced into the Firefly system as Three times now, I have noted that the firefly system will tell me that the batteries were beyond float level and the generator and Magnum chargers / inverters are not charging at all into the system, the Firefly "data" is wrong. The first time i caught it was after driving for 5 or 6 hours and getting all sorts of faults. When I got to where Spartan said I should shut down, I started the genny to power up the batteries. Just happened to check the VegaTouch and it said all house batteries were beyond float and they were not charging.... which makes NO SENSE what-so-ever, but it appeared the Magnums were not charging. The chargers were "OFF". So shut everything down (ignition, genny, and house) and reboot VegaTouch and restart everything, and Voila!!!!! All of a sudden the Magnums are hitting the batteries with 80+ amps from each charger (what they should have been doing to begin with.). Oh....the tech at Freightliner said that my system showed over 7,000 fault codes of one type and over 4,000 fault code occurrences of another type..... 7,000 fault codes!!!!!!!!???????

So, the function of the Magnums or the monitoring of the VegaTouch system is also somehow tapped into the bus that carries all of the performance data of the RADAR OnGuard system or somewhere also??!!?? God, that makes no sense to me, but again suggests that all of this stuff is connected together in an amazingly complex network of interconnections.

I hope that the Russians or Chinese or some 400 pound kid sitting in his bedroom with a computer (paraphrased quotes from high government sources) never decides to start screwing with our coach computer software, or we are all in for a bunch of trouble on these new coaches..... ....

Gary
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Old 11-22-2018, 08:39 PM   #23
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Gary, Can you buy the software? That way if a problem happens again you are 1 step ahead of the game.
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Old 11-23-2018, 08:04 AM   #24
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In fact, I have bought the software off of E-Bay. It is going to be a while before I can determine if what I bought is really what I need and has all the registration software needed. The cost was very good, but I am worried that it will not work. However, for the price I paid, I am willing to take the chance.

It's $299 direct from WABCO or SnapOn or a $100 upgrade from the 2014 version. Will take me a couple of weeks to get home (if I can get this immediate problem resolved while on the road). I will report back.

If it works, I might be willing to make other owners RADAR system die a painless death for a reasonable fee.... ($500 sounds reasonable) And I won't discriminate against Newmar owners....

An aside.... my DW came through with a full bore Thanksgiving Turkey dinner for us (pies the whole 9 yards) while stuck here in Maryland..... She's amazing!

EDIT: In point of fact, I am not at all sure that the software is needed to get the codes that WABCO needs to know to determine what the problem is..... I think there is a good chance that the codes they think they need also come up on our Valid digital dash (and WABCO doesnt realize that). I have spent a lot of time looking at the error codes that come up on the dash for the J13XXX or whatever that bus is, and there are two types of codes on there. There are SPN FMI 4 digit codes (I think true Spartan codes are from 2 to 4 digits). I read those codes off to the boys at Spartan and that told them a lot about my problem. In addition, there were a bunch of much longer codes on there that all began with a "5" and were 5 or 6 digit codes. I would bet a fairly large amount of money that those are WABCO codes. I will know when they read the codes with the Toolbox software and I can compare those codes with the Toolbox reading of codes. However, I know that Spartan guys said they have "no idea what those codes are" that were coming up on my screen... There is a short definition of what the codes mean, and as I say, I would bet money that they are WABCO OnGuard codes and WABCO's people simply dont know that those codes show on our dash.

The codes have now been erased so last time I looked they were gone. And, now my digital dash doesn't work at all as the terminating resistor has been moved to under the dash, which resolves most of my Cummins performance and Allison shifting problems to get off the repair center's lot and to this KOA, so I can't confirm my memory..... but I am pretty confident we are going to find out that the codes did show on my dash ..... If so, that is VERY important as other owners with problems may be able to give WABCO the codes directly before they get to a service center). Now the software may well be needed to change things, tweak things, etc. but I am betting that if I had given WABCO those codes, they might have been able to determine if the RADAR unit and circuitry is the problem, or if the wiring harness issue is really the problem. Lots of surmising.... but interesting possibilities


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Old 11-23-2018, 08:51 AM   #25
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Gary, Can you buy the software? That way if a problem happens again you are 1 step ahead of the game.
Purchasing the software, might be easy. Having the experience to use it is a major issue. The computer tech at the front end shop I took my 19 to took him 4.5 hours to "try" to clear the error message. He has a lot of experience with other digital dashes, the shop only does trucks, but my not the ones installed in the Entegra. Even the software company was no help.
Seeing how easy it was to get additional error messages into the system, I am convinced trying to do any tweaking of the existing systems will cause problems for the owner, with or without using the software. After my brief experience, I will be driving mine using the programs for all the features of the digital dash as written.
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Old 11-23-2018, 09:27 AM   #26
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I have long ago given up on driving the coach without ACC enabled, but at this point, the whole ACC/CMS and a bunch of other things are not working at all. I would gladly go back to the whole system if it would safely get me going and back home, but that is water under the bridge. The whole system has just failed. And WABCO says it has nothing to do with my preference to drive with ACC defeated, or with ACC fully operational..... it is simply a complete failure of the whole system and would have happened regardless of how I was driving it. The current guess is that it is a total failure of the ONGuard RADAR CPU circuit board, or all of that is fine, but that the wiring put on the coach by Spartan or Entegra has a problem, and if it is that issue, then we are down to tracing individual wires and looking for breaks or bad connectors, or poor grounds.

I think that you want to believe that my turning ACC off is what started all of this, but I am being told that that had nothing to do with it. But, who really knows? Again, all this stuff is too new, and the support facilities are not current enough at this point to deal with serious problems. That is the bottom line.... Entegra kicks it to Spartan, Spartan kicks it to Wabco, and Wabco says their hands are tied unless the service facility has the right software, and the service facilities are trying to work with something that they are not really skilled at working with. Everyone is sympathetic and everyone is trying to help, but it is just a problem at this point. They will get a better handle on all of this over time, they just don't have it figured out now.

Gary
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Old 11-23-2018, 10:01 AM   #27
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Gary, I hear what you are saying. I found out that just plugging the Toolkit computer in can throw the entire system into a tail spin. On mine it was the CMS and ACC that shut down trying to clear a legitimate code. It is anybody's guess what caused it and we may never know. I know I won't be trying to override anything until there is a better understanding of the computer system. If the techs don't understand it, no way an owner is going to understand it. I only spent 4.5 hours with the blame game and that was enough for me. Everybody went WHEW! when it cleared itself sitting over night. It will be interesting what they find with yours.
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Old 11-23-2018, 06:45 PM   #28
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Makes me want to stick with my 2018, warts and all, and not even look at a newer model for 2-3 years. These systems are NOT ready for prime time and the owners are being unpaid alpha testers. I wouldn't even call it beta yet.
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