2002 Journey A/C issues on shore power

[Nalle]

Jim,

That is a great write up on your 6535 fix up. I like the part about removing the lower back end. I am sure mine needs fixing too.
First, I love the basement air and would never replace with roof air. I have had it out twice to replace the outside air motor. The first time because it had ten years of grime on it and the second time because the replacement just failed.
Everything is working, however I do get the clunk when #2 compressor kicks in.
I also have a Cat 330 HP, so my back end has to be much the same as yours. I have the 6537 with a top return. I am looking to replace the whole unit with a new 86515. Problem is the conversion from top return to side return.
Looking at your pictures, the one with "saving all the screws in a plastic bag" shows part of your return duct in the upper right corner. Do you recall how deep it is??
My problem is space between the heatpump and the CAC piping. I can only fit a 4" deep duct and I am concerned about return air velocity.
Looking at your picture, it does not look like you have any more than about 4" either. I am curious if you have any other pictures showing the return air side???
Heat Pump Mount 2.pdf
Even though my 6537 is still working, I am seriously considering going to a new 86515. At the same time, I would modify the frame and install on slides as recommended in the 86515 install manual.
Appreciate any input

[Jim_HiTek]

Jim,

That is a great write up on your 6535 fix up. I like the part about removing the lower back end. I am sure mine needs fixing too.
First, I love the basement air and would never replace with roof air. I have had it out twice to replace the outside air motor. The first time because it had ten years of grime on it and the second time because the replacement just failed.
Everything is working, however I do get the clunk when #2 compressor kicks in.
I also have a Cat 330 HP, so my back end has to be much the same as yours. I have the 6537 with a top return. I am looking to replace the whole unit with a new 86515. Problem is the conversion from top return to side return.
Looking at your pictures, the one with "saving all the screws in a plastic bag" shows part of your return duct in the upper right corner. Do you recall how deep it is??
My problem is space between the heatpump and the CAC piping. I can only fit a 4" deep duct and I am concerned about return air velocity.
Looking at your picture, it does not look like you have any more than about 4" either. I am curious if you have any other pictures showing the return air side???
Attachment 289813
Even though my 6537 is still working, I am seriously considering going to a new 86515. At the same time, I would modify the frame and install on slides as recommended in the 86515 install manual.
Appreciate any input

I think you must mean 'upper LEFT corner' in this picture? But it's just below that corner that you can just see part of the return air ducting. It's that white plastic box shape.



In this next picture, it shows the heavy plastic duct work that attaches to the side of the bed frame. It is approximately 4" deep. This shot is looking into the Coleman's tray. The foam makes a seal against the side of the Coleman.

From here it goes into the engine compartment and is wrapped with heavy foil covered insulation than continues up into the bedroom, ending at the filter and grill built into the side of the bed stand. It's basically a giant 'U' shape with the air sucked into the top through the filter, and routed down into the Coleman. I haven't spotted any other pictures of this duct work in the Coleman sections.



The way my system is setup the Coleman is pushed up against the foam seals shown on the opening to the ducting. So I have a side air return, not a top air return. I hope I understood your questions. Let me know if I didn't.

[Nalle]

Jim,

Right you are. I did mean upper left corner. Thanks for the additional picture showing the duct work. Exactly what I was looking for!! I have tried both Winnebago and Airxcel for help, but without much luck.
It is very tight back there between engine and Heatpump, but your picture shows that it is possible.
I have been sketching on a conversion from the old 6537 to a new 86515 for years now. (I realize that yours is a 6535, but the issue is that same - Space!). I was always concerned about air velocity in the return duct. I am now pretty sure that if your duct works, so will mine. I am planning to do the conversion this fall, once back home again. When I do it, I will also follow the 86515 install manual and use slide tracks for easy service work.



Thanks for your feedback on this. I feel now pretty comfortable that my conversion design will work

[Jim_HiTek]

I like the 'slides' as an upgrade but when thinking about it, I don't think I'd to have it for the very few times the unit has to be pulled out. Maybe 2X or 3X over it's lifetime?

The other thing is the rear mounted foam seal. The tray is dropped a couple inches for the top front of the Coleman to clear the safety lip, that part of the RV's chassis frame that would help keep that big heavy box inside the RV in the event of a tip over. I think you need to keep that in mind when you install the rail system so that you can add a bracket or something equivalent.

The tray like mine, that drops a couple - three inches also serves another purpose. The service guy pushes it up against the bottom of the venting as far as it will go. Then as the tray is bolted up those 2" that compresses the opening in the heatpump up against the foam seal. If you have a level and horizontal heatpump you push back against the seal, you have to have some method of squeezing it against the foam seal and keeping it there.

To me it's already a excellent example of mechanical engineering the way it came from the factory. But the slide would be cool if you could work out the bugs.

[Nalle]

Jim,

I appreciate your thinking and input on this. Interestingly enough, the install instructions for the 86515 recommend putting it on slides and it also shows four areas underneath where they want the unit supported. However, there are no mounting holes or means for holding it in place. A couple of sheet metal screws will surely not do.... Maybe some kind of metal strapping??
I do agree with you that the slide seem like an overkill. However, the added cost is minimal. Murphy - the guy with the law - seems to make sure that failure happens when it is either 100 or 35 degrees out and you are short of helping hands.
It is worth noting that the 86515 is considerably lower than the older units and does not need lowering for removal - the frame will always stay in place. The drawing below shows my current thinking...
The old frame (green) will be added to (yellow) for proper slide rail (white) support. A new frame (blue) on top to provide the right base support for the 86515. Slide rails are heavy duty and bolted both top and bottom. The whole unit would slide in against the rear foam seal and latch in place.
I need to do some thinking about your mention of the old unit being captured in the frame on top, when raised. By the same token, I sure hope I don't tip over.

[Jim_HiTek]

As I was installing mine, I'd go side to side putting a couple turns on the bolts that slowly raised the heat pump into position. For about 2" of the top edge of the pump, I had to use a pry bar between that steel 'lip' up on the top edge and the case of the heat pump. I needed the pry bar to force the body of the heat pump up against the seal. There's no way I could just push it enough by hand, there had to be a lever of some kind to compress that foam seal. Which is a good thing in my mind.

When I finished and turned on the AC, I crawled underneath with a feather from a feather duster and tested around that interface for leaks. Thankfully, none found.

Maybe as you're designing your modification, consider having a couple flat stock steel bars that you'd have bolted to the frame top or bottom, that you'd squeeze up against the pump, and then insert and tighten a bolt on the top or bottom. Arranged in such a manner that it would force the pump against the seal. They could be mounted in a way that you'd have both a lever for squeezing the case against the seal and the steel to hold the thing in place in case of an accident.

Oh, just recalled...the steel cage my pump lived in was surrounded on all sides by steel angle iron. If you can weld, maybe weld in a horizontal piece of angle iron with slotted bolt holes on either side. Then after the pump is in position, you drop the angle iron down so it's lipped over the edge and sort of holding the pump, than cinch up the bolts. With proper measurements, it could be mounted so the pump has to be compressing the seal for it to properly fit over the pump edge.

Just a thought.

[Nalle]

Jim, great input again. Thanks!
I did not realize that you needed to force the top in with a crowbar for a proper seal on the rear return unit. Since the 6537 has a top return, I just keep cranking on the four bolts until it seals on top. Works very well.
Brings new thought to my head..... Maybe mounting the custom return duct permanently to the RV and slide the heat pump against a side seal is the wrong approach. I might forget all about slides and mount the custom return duct permanently to the new heat pump and raise the whole assembly up the way the 6537 worked. Simple! Room for some thinking here.
Also still debating if I should make the duct out of sheet metal or custom form a fiberglass/epoxy duct. Fiberglass i could make myself, but sheet metal i might have to farm out. Luckily I have till October to think about all this.

By the way, I checked out your blog. Seems that we all have pretty much the same kind of problems - Awnings, water pumps and scratches.

[Jim_HiTek]

I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that while I was researching my heat pump that I ran into an AirExcel page that mentioned and showed a drawing of a conversion duct between the older 65XX series and the newer, smaller 86XXX style. Might be worth the time to check with their engineering dept to see if they've already designed that and have a p/n for it. Your drawing up above seems to say that you designed the ducting you're showing in that drawing yourself.

Or maybe they offered a model of the 86XXX that has a top mounted return air inlet, I don't recall for sure.

One of your early comments was,

I was always concerned about air velocity in the return duct.

I don't see any concern here as that's the return air. It's 'sucked' into the heatpump. Since air is composed of widely separated molecules it's really tolerant about that sort of thing. If noise is a concern, it's under the floor so would doubt the ducting would contribute much airflow noise. The ducting looks fine in that drawing.

Now, back to the problem at hand...once you buy the heatpump, it's yours to do what you want to adapt to your situation and it's widely accepted that those mods wouldn't affect the operational warranty. What I'd do is sheet metal screw the custom ducting to the side, like Winnebago did to the outlet. With some foam tape at the interface. Maybe add a couple aluminum angles to allow easier alignment.

Here's a picture of how they did it (before I cleaned it up):


Those AL pieces helped guide the ducting interface into the right place. And helped hold it there. But there were still 5 sheet metal screws to hold it. And you can see from this picture how the factory just seemed to plunge them through the plastic duct work into the metal haphazardly:



Maybe do that sort of thing on the air return opening with your custom duct work. Now, up on the top, use plastic plumbers tape and sheet metal screws to strap the ducting to the top of the case, using a sheet or strips of foam under it to hold it up off the case. I think the Dollar Store foam kneeling pads (around ~11" X 9" X 1/2" thick high density foam for $1) would work great for that.

Once that custom duct is solidly attached to the case, than the interface between the ducting and floor can be more easily handled. I like the idea of having the pump slowly raised up to compress a foam seal. And I would used sticky backed closed cell foam stuck to the upper opening of the ducting. Avoids having to get it to stick to whatever they used up above. Appeals to my K.I.S.S. philosophy in general.

My choice would also be to eliminate the sliding rails. Something to consider with sliding rails is road debris, and rust. Especially if you drive up north where they salt the roads near the start of spring when you're traveling and it rains.

Just some ideas.

[Nalle]

Jim,

Your input has helped to clarify a lot. The rear back end engine/heatpump setup must be close to identical to mine, except I have the 6537 with top return.

So, after all our back and forth, this is how I am now leaning...

No slide rails. I have had the 6537 out twice and with an extra pair of strong hands, it is no big deal.

I would prefer to attach the duct to the rig rather than the heatpump. The foam gasket between heatpump and duct would probably reduce vibrations/noise in the duct. I will have to wait with that decision until I can get in for a look/see when the old unit is out. Either one can be made to work.

Thinking about making the duct out of fiberglass/epoxy. That should deaden the sound better than sheet metal. For "one of" pieces, there is something called the "lost foam" method, where you make the shape from styrofoam and build the piece with fiberglass/epoxy on top. Then melt away the foam with acetone. It would take a couple of days, but it sounds pretty neat and I might learn something new. I have worked with fiberglass and epoxy building canoes and kayaks years back.

It was great to "ventilate" ideas with you. Lets put this on hold for now. I''ll let you know how I make out with this once I get back in the fall.

By the way, neither Winnebago nor Airxcel have been much help. There is no interest from either one to provide any kind of conversion from the now discontinued 6537 to a 86515. It's easy to do from a 6535 to a 86515. Winnebago did send me a drawing that I requested. I am sure it is for the duct used on your rig. However, it is not available as a part and would not fit my 34 footer anyway. I am sure that your back end floor plans is quite different than mine. I have also learned here on the forum that one member had this conversion successfully done on a 34 footer by a dealer somewhere in Oregon. It they can do, I can do it!

[Jim_HiTek]

Lost foam method...sounds interesting. Sure hope you take pictures and come here and post them as you work.

I was considering *my* back when proposing the vent assembly be attached to the side & top of the unit and than raised in position. I wouldn't want to try to permanently attach the vent to the ceiling in that small space lying on my back or on my knees underneath the RV. But that's just me, what with my bad knees and big belly and all.

You have a much better handle on what it would take since you've removed yours before and I've not seen one in person or how it's mounted.

I also think that a plastic or insulating foam duct work piece would tend to be quieter than sheet metal.

There is/was a RV customizing shop in Eugene Oregon as I recall. I thought they'd closed though. Oregon is my home base/stomping ground. I'm in Milton-Freewater ATM staying at my daughters place. Really happy I came up here and escaped the heat I was seeing down in Pahrump and Amado/Nogales and Mazatlan. (I slowly drifted up here starting in mid-March).

Sometimes when there's an interesting project, I can't see the forest for the trees...and I didn't ask the most basic question about your plans: I was googling the 6537 and found a link where it showed the compressor available as a repair part. And I've read many times that a HVAC tech would have no problem working on one of these as long as it's already pulled out of the RV. You description of a loud 'thump' I took care of in my unit with new ball bearings, new motor start and run caps, oiling the motors. So I'm just wondering 'why not repair' the 6537? Just curious.

[Nalle]

Jim,

New compressors and a rebuild has always been an option. Last year I checked with Winnebago and compressors were available. However, when it is all done, I will have spent almost as much money as the cost of a new 86515. Just the compressors are $1500 for the pair. Then you probably need a few capacitors and starting relays, etc., etc.. Labor and materials to evacuate the old system and recharge with old, expensive R-22. Before you know it, I will be up at $2500 - about the cost for a new, shiny 86515.
I would still have an 16 year old and rusty system. There is something tempting about a replacement 86515.
I have been under looking and measuring and I don't think it would be too bad to mount the return duct to the "ceiling", rather than attaching to the back of the 86515.
However, your earlier mention of the crow bar to force your unit in has made me think. I will probably need something to also put some pressure along the top edge of the 86515.
For me this is a fairly major project and I want to have all my ducks in a row before I start. I am to old to have too many "oh shits" happening once I start. I may even contact the outfit in Oregon that has done this before and see if they can do the job if I stop by on my way south this fall. It is very tempting!!

[Jim_HiTek]

This is the message I sent to Kustom Coach Works near Eugene, Oregon.

Comment or Message

Can you do a AirExcel 6537 to 86515 conversion? The newer heat pump, the 86515, is way smaller than the 6537 and the air exits the side instead of the top as the older 6537 units did. So it would need a plastic vent conversion kit.
Do you do this kind of conversion?

Thanks!

Bobby Vodden <kustomcoachworks@yahoo.com>
Sun, Jun 21, 10:12 PM (11 hours ago)
to me

Yes we can would need to look up all the parts we are booked out a few weeks as well . If you would like to make an appointment you can call us @1-541-501-3371 open 8am - 430pm Monday-Friday
Thanks Bobby

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
So they do that conversion...

The guy didn't directly say anything about the ducting kit but you might give them a call and ask them how they would provide one for your situation. They might want to see that neat drawing you have of the setup.

Good luck on your project!

[Nalle]

Jim,

The other outfit that I have read about is Jackson RV in Central Point, OR. That's two in Oregon! Maybe I can find someone closer to home?
This conversion has been discussed for years on the forum and always seemed like something no one wanted to take on. Maybe the shops are coming around and realize that it is not such a big deal.

[boyland]

This is an excellent source for the compressors.

I would feel safe using 3/4 ton to 1 ton units with the coil sets that are there. But that is me you have to make your own call.

https://surpluscityliquidators.com/t...1272%3A115-120