Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
RV Trip Planning Discussions

Go Back   iRV2 Forums > THE OWNER'S CORNER FORUMS > Winnebago Industries Owner's Forum
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-25-2018, 08:44 PM   #15
Member
 
markap12013's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterbagoal View Post
From the Battle Born website - specs on their 12V x 100ah lithium batteries...

100 Amp Hour, 12 Volt Battery
LiFePO4 Chemistry
3000- 5000 Cycles
100 Amp Continuous Current
200 Amp Surge Current (30 Seconds)
1/2 second surge for higher loads
Drop in Replacement for Lead Acid Batteries
Acceptable Voltages 14.4 – 14.6 for bulk charging
3 Year Warranty
Designed and Assembled in the USA
12.75 x 6.875 x 9 (L x W xH)
29 lbs
5/16″ x 1″ Bolt set included

I just measured my battery bay under the entrance steps. Standing outside facing the steps, it's 29" long (side to side), by 8" wide (front to back), by 13" deep measured at the base upon which the GR24 OEM batteries are sitting. The usable length is 29" minus 1.25" per side where the edges are turned up = 26.5" of width. Two of their 100ah batteries 12.75" wide X 6.875" X 9" high/deep will fit in that space. I've subtracted the .5" of width eaten up by the threaded rod that acts as part of the tie down system at the front of the lower part of the compartment. So, I'm not sure why you've said you couldn't get 2 GR27 batteries in there. I believe they will fit.

Also, could you please explain or post up a link to where it says that any lithium iron phosphate (LiFeP04) battery BMS shuts it off or disconnects it from the 12VDC supply system when the SoC reaches 93%? I'm curious to know why they would do that, and am trying to understand lithium battery systems, and their idiosyncrasies. I've done internet searches and can't find anything that relates to the 93% cutoff process you've mentioned.

Thanks.
Looking forward to learning more about the lithium batteries. I will also ask my friend with the Battleborns the if he has had any issues with them

My EMS install was actually fairly easy compared to Bill's experience. I removed the junction box and the cable retainers. Fed the cable from the house into the one end of the PI box and the end with the plug into the other. I don't recall stripping any wires. I made all connections before attaching the PI EMS box to the floor of the compartment with a strip of industrial velcro - very secure. Can't really read much of the display but if it ever doesn't pass electricity I can use a mirror or the camera on my phone to read it

Took maybe 45 min when I was expecting half the day or more. Having a short stool really saved my back

After getting back from trip I went back in and shortened the cable and plug to about 24in just to make plugging gen in easier along with storing the cable

Still have the burner issue...hot water and small burner are fine. Plenty of gas and reasonable spark at large but no light except with match.
__________________
Reston, VA
2019 View D
Almost retired...
markap12013 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 06-25-2018, 08:48 PM   #16
Member
 
markap12013's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by markap12013 View Post
Looking forward to learning more about the lithium batteries. I will also ask my friend with the Battleborns the if he has had any issues with them

My EMS install was actually fairly easy compared to Bill's experience. I removed the junction box and the cable retainers. Fed the cable from the house into the one end of the PI box and the end with the plug into the other. I don't recall stripping any wires. I made all connections before attaching the PI EMS box to the floor of the compartment with a strip of industrial velcro - very secure. Can't really read much of the display but if it ever doesn't pass electricity I can use a mirror or the camera on my phone to read it

Took maybe 45 min when I was expecting half the day or more. Having a short stool really saved my back

After getting back from trip I went back in and shortened the cable and plug to about 24in just to make plugging gen in easier along with storing the cable

Still have the burner issue...hot water and small burner are fine. Plenty of gas and reasonable spark at large but no light except with match.
Regarding the batteries...what do you think if I cut off the ends of the platform where they are bent up and just placed a longer steel plate over what's left and then added in the group 27s with some sort of tiedown. Maybe bolt the plate down...

Not something I'll do this year but maybe next year.
__________________
Reston, VA
2019 View D
Almost retired...
markap12013 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2018, 06:26 AM   #17
Senior Member
 
Winterbagoal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Sarnialabad, Peoples Republik of Canuckistan
Posts: 2,223
Quote:
Originally Posted by markap12013 View Post
Regarding the batteries...what do you think if I cut off the ends of the platform where they are bent up and just placed a longer steel plate over what's left and then added in the group 27s with some sort of tiedown. Maybe bolt the plate down...

Not something I'll do this year but maybe next year.
I was thinking something like that would work, when I was measuring my battery bay last night. If I do get an answer about this BMS cutoff at 93% SoC comment/issue, and decide to go lithium, they're light enough that a base plate "extension" held down with a couple of sheet metal screws would probably be more than enough to support 2 X 29 lb GR 27 lithium, or even a couple of lead acid AGMs. The OEMs are around 45lbs each, IIRC? I'd leave the turned up sides in place unless it was absolutely necessary to remove them. They would snug up the side to side fit of a pair of 12.75" batts.
Have you ever heard of the "93% disconnect" issue with lithium batteries? I googled the hell out of it last night and couldn't find anything. Some comments and stats about how they go from bulk to absorb to float numbers, but nothing about disconnecting from the system "on the fly" as was suggested. My only other concern is charge/recharge/discharge at low temperature. I think I read that the BMS reduces the amps they will accept when it's below 0C/32F to a low number, like 10A, no matter how much you feed to them. Or something like that. I don't think it affects discharge rates, but I'm not sure. Freezing prevention is an issue, as well. I will remove them if necessary in extreme cold weather, but would prefer not to, if possible. I know of some class B applications where the batteries actually supply power to their own heating pads to help reduce the threat of freezing. If that was an option, I'd go for it, because I could always supply shore power during periods of storage, if I knew it would power the battery heat pads.

Sounds like the PI EMS install wasn't too bad. I'm going to probably go with a portable PI EMS 30C or 30X, depending on what's available at Best Converter when I pull the trigger. My 3rd panel install is scheduled for Thursday. Ordered just over a month ago. They're on back order, apparently. My panel arrived at my dealer last Friday.
__________________
2018 (2017 Sprinter Cab Chassis) Navion24V + 2016 Wrangler JKU (sold @ ????) - 2016 Sunstar 26HE (sold @ 4600 miles) - 2002 Roadtrek C190P (sold @ 315,000kms)
Winterbagoal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2018, 05:34 AM   #18
Senior Member
 
kayak70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NW GA
Posts: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterbagoal View Post
From the Battle Born website - .........snip
12.75 x 6.875 x 9 (L x W xH)
29 lbs
5/16″ x 1″ Bolt set included

I just measured my battery bay under the entrance steps. Standing outside facing the steps, it's 29" long (side to side), by 8" wide (front to back), by 13" deep measured at the base upon which the GR24 OEM batteries are sitting. The usable length is 29" minus 1.25" per side where the edges are turned up = 26.5" of width. Two of their 100ah batteries 12.75" wide X 6.875" X 9" high/deep will fit in that space. I've subtracted the .5" of width eaten up by the threaded rod that acts as part of the tie down system at the front of the lower part of the compartment. So, I'm not sure why you've said you couldn't get 2 GR27 batteries in there. I believe they will fit.

Also, could you please explain or post up a link to where it says that any lithium iron phosphate (LiFeP04) battery BMS shuts it off or disconnects it from the 12VDC supply system when the SoC reaches 93%?

Thanks.

OK, first I have a 18V24D. The top of the tray under the step cover is NOT the problem at all, it appears fine. Crawl under the rig with a tape measure and you see the issue. Look over at the spin off forum and Tuscontoy has posted photos of his mod - which is ABSOLETELY necessary to install group 27 or 31 batteries. This is not a joke, I have spent a long time trying to find a fit without modifying the tray. One fit which is possible is the Duracell 135 AH GC2 battery based on the dimension. Their T-145 replacement at 255AH will not fit, it is too tall. You must relocate the Litefuse for the inverter or chop off the ends of the bottom of the battery tray. Go crawl under the thing with a real tape measure - your model might be different than mine but don't know. You have two things to consider in a 18V24D, the tray is MADE for 24DCM batteries and that include LxWxH. It can be chopped and the Litefuse can be moved. No modification is necessary for the TOP opening where you insert the battery.


Now LiION. Charging beyond 93% will shorten the life cycle of them. I'm possibly a wild retired engineer type who believes a 2-3000 dollar investment should be managed properly. It depends on the BMS as I said whether or not the battery disconnects at 93% SOC. You can overcharge it possibly but last I heard overcharging or charging over 16VDC just might not be a smart move. I really like the LiFEBlue BMS, called Larry yesterday but we failed to hook, missed his return call - I was rechecking the stupid battery tray with a tape measure , crawled under the rig and then looking for a place to remount the Litefuse for the inverter. Every single BMS I have looked at specifically states disconnect at over voltage > 16 and no charge at < 32*F plus some mystery stuff and a list of other things. BTW, most all of the 300 AH Lithium batts are group D, too wide to fit in any way in the battery tray. The 200 AH will fit perfectly in the battery tray, one of the few I found. I thought long and hard about mounting a 300AH under the kitchen sink. In a 24D model rig that puts it just about right next to the under step battery tray and requires less work than chopping and modifying the battery tray itself. Anything other than the small GC2 battery mentioned or another group 24 battery will require SOME modification of the 24D battery tray. Now, installing a group 24 Lithium battery will provide some boost in energy based on lithium properties but - not enough for my needs. Maximum life cycles of the expensive lithium you want to discharge at 70% cycles, although you can hammer it down past 80% or take it dead if you want. that will shorten the life cycles - up to the owner. The other thing about putting a lithium inside is protection from freezing temps, the BMS will shut it down and prevent charge at temps below 32*F so mount it outside is OK as long as you are aware of that. Charging LiION below freezing would kill it totally.


On our 24D battery tray there are actually three obstacles in mounting anything larger than the smaller GC2 6volts or another 24DCM. One, watch the Litefuse for Height. Two, the turned up ends of the battery tray BOTTOM limit length of total battery install to 21.5 inches. Three there are also lips extending from the side on each end just above the bottom which must be cut off as well as the upturned ends of the bottom. Once you modify the bottom of the tray and remove those spacer things on the side (cutoff tool on each) you can indeed mount a group 27 or 31 battery in the tray, width limited to 7.25 inches and mindful of the litefuse. That means AFTER the mod in a 24D and based on Tuscontoy post I am guessing the new Views are probably all like this. Go over and look at his photos under the spin off forum, click on his tag and you will find the album.


Or - if you wish - just go on and buy some brand new high dollar AGM group 31 batteries and have em delivered and put em in the battery tray (oops - not) but don't say you were not told about the issues before hand because you better be good with a cutoff tool and patient or I will hear your screams from the corner of NW GA and and
__________________
Bill & Brenda + Mia
Mobius Memories
'18V24D, '13 TiffinBR32, Tiffin 34TGA, '11 Aspect 30C, 06V23H, '00 HHikerII 5W
kayak70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2018, 06:06 AM   #19
Senior Member
 
kayak70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NW GA
Posts: 294
You can certainly mount the EMS as Mark noted. I chose to move the OEM house termination and leave it intact with a permanent mount with screws for the EMS. Vibration is a problem but his way will work. My way took a bit more effort but then I'm not as flexible as when younger.


The photos Tuscontory posted in his album show the very thing you described Mike, cut off the ends of the bottom tray, remove the spacer tabs on the sides and place a piece of steel in the bottom. If you drop in lithium you won't even need anything added to the bottom with the 200AH version from LifeBlue. Just put some large tie wrap straps around it and the bottom and zip em down tight. You will need to replace one or the other set of OEM cables to the battery but you can simply remove the Litefuse while putting in the battery then remount it in the same place. On that particular battery the distance between the terminals is fairly large meaning either the POS or NEG cable set from under the PS seat will need replacement probably - at least on my rig. With that particular battery you could even use the original hold downs and NO modification would be needed at all to the tray itself. At 80% discharge cycle that gives 160 AH usable, not shabby at all and quite likely enough to make you happy all night. The really nice thing is they take a charge really fast so you are up again the next day ready. Think about it, two T-1275 at 85# each will only give you 150AH at 50% discharge and this lightweight thing can meet that easily with ZERO modifications to the tray, just drop it in and replace one or the other set of cables. I would opt for the Pos set.


BTW, charging at greater than 93% SOC will shorten the life span of that expensive battery but you can depending on the BMS. Like discharge at 80% vs 70% where 70% gives you 3-5000 life cycles 80% might give 2-3000 life cycles. Either one is definitely longer than I will be able to drive probably given my age right now. I am going to try connecting to Larry again today and when I get a definitive answer about this particular battery I will post it here - concerning overcharge at > 93%. That is my one remaining real concern with dropping one of the 200AH batts in (aside from the wife and my check book screaming WHY).
__________________
Bill & Brenda + Mia
Mobius Memories
'18V24D, '13 TiffinBR32, Tiffin 34TGA, '11 Aspect 30C, 06V23H, '00 HHikerII 5W
kayak70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2018, 07:15 AM   #20
Senior Member
 
Winterbagoal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Sarnialabad, Peoples Republik of Canuckistan
Posts: 2,223
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayak70 View Post
OK, first I have a 18V24D. The top of the tray under the step cover is NOT the problem at all, it appears fine. Crawl under the rig with a tape measure and you see the issue. Look over at the spin off forum and Tuscontoy has posted photos of his mod - which is ABSOLETELY necessary to install group 27 or 31 batteries. This is not a joke, I have spent a long time trying to find a fit without modifying the tray. One fit which is possible is the Duracell 135 AH GC2 battery based on the dimension. Their T-145 replacement at 255AH will not fit, it is too tall. You must relocate the Litefuse for the inverter or chop off the ends of the bottom of the battery tray. Go crawl under the thing with a real tape measure - your model might be different than mine but don't know. You have two things to consider in a 18V24D, the tray is MADE for 24DCM batteries and that include LxWxH. It can be chopped and the Litefuse can be moved. No modification is necessary for the TOP opening where you insert the battery.


Now LiION. Charging beyond 93% will shorten the life cycle of them. I'm possibly a wild retired engineer type who believes a 2-3000 dollar investment should be managed properly. It depends on the BMS as I said whether or not the battery disconnects at 93% SOC. You can overcharge it possibly but last I heard overcharging or charging over 16VDC just might not be a smart move. I really like the LiFEBlue BMS, called Larry yesterday but we failed to hook, missed his return call - I was rechecking the stupid battery tray with a tape measure , crawled under the rig and then looking for a place to remount the Litefuse for the inverter. Every single BMS I have looked at specifically states disconnect at over voltage > 16 and no charge at < 32*F plus some mystery stuff and a list of other things. BTW, most all of the 300 AH Lithium batts are group D, too wide to fit in any way in the battery tray. The 200 AH will fit perfectly in the battery tray, one of the few I found. I thought long and hard about mounting a 300AH under the kitchen sink. In a 24D model rig that puts it just about right next to the under step battery tray and requires less work than chopping and modifying the battery tray itself. Anything other than the small GC2 battery mentioned or another group 24 battery will require SOME modification of the 24D battery tray. Now, installing a group 24 Lithium battery will provide some boost in energy based on lithium properties but - not enough for my needs. Maximum life cycles of the expensive lithium you want to discharge at 70% cycles, although you can hammer it down past 80% or take it dead if you want. that will shorten the life cycles - up to the owner. The other thing about putting a lithium inside is protection from freezing temps, the BMS will shut it down and prevent charge at temps below 32*F so mount it outside is OK as long as you are aware of that. Charging LiION below freezing would kill it totally.


On our 24D battery tray there are actually three obstacles in mounting anything larger than the smaller GC2 6volts or another 24DCM. One, watch the Litefuse for Height. Two, the turned up ends of the battery tray BOTTOM limit length of total battery install to 21.5 inches. Three there are also lips extending from the side on each end just above the bottom which must be cut off as well as the upturned ends of the bottom. Once you modify the bottom of the tray and remove those spacer things on the side (cutoff tool on each) you can indeed mount a group 27 or 31 battery in the tray, width limited to 7.25 inches and mindful of the litefuse. That means AFTER the mod in a 24D and based on Tuscontoy post I am guessing the new Views are probably all like this. Go over and look at his photos under the spin off forum, click on his tag and you will find the album.


Or - if you wish - just go on and buy some brand new high dollar AGM group 31 batteries and have em delivered and put em in the battery tray (oops - not) but don't say you were not told about the issues before hand because you better be good with a cutoff tool and patient or I will hear your screams from the corner of NW GA and and
???
__________________
2018 (2017 Sprinter Cab Chassis) Navion24V + 2016 Wrangler JKU (sold @ ????) - 2016 Sunstar 26HE (sold @ 4600 miles) - 2002 Roadtrek C190P (sold @ 315,000kms)
Winterbagoal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2018, 07:16 AM   #21
Senior Member
 
Winterbagoal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Sarnialabad, Peoples Republik of Canuckistan
Posts: 2,223
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayak70 View Post
You can certainly mount the EMS as Mark noted. I chose to move the OEM house termination and leave it intact with a permanent mount with screws for the EMS. Vibration is a problem but his way will work. My way took a bit more effort but then I'm not as flexible as when younger.


The photos Tuscontory posted in his album show the very thing you described Mike, cut off the ends of the bottom tray, remove the spacer tabs on the sides and place a piece of steel in the bottom. If you drop in lithium you won't even need anything added to the bottom with the 200AH version from LifeBlue. Just put some large tie wrap straps around it and the bottom and zip em down tight. You will need to replace one or the other set of OEM cables to the battery but you can simply remove the Litefuse while putting in the battery then remount it in the same place. On that particular battery the distance between the terminals is fairly large meaning either the POS or NEG cable set from under the PS seat will need replacement probably - at least on my rig. With that particular battery you could even use the original hold downs and NO modification would be needed at all to the tray itself. At 80% discharge cycle that gives 160 AH usable, not shabby at all and quite likely enough to make you happy all night. The really nice thing is they take a charge really fast so you are up again the next day ready. Think about it, two T-1275 at 85# each will only give you 150AH at 50% discharge and this lightweight thing can meet that easily with ZERO modifications to the tray, just drop it in and replace one or the other set of cables. I would opt for the Pos set.


BTW, charging at greater than 93% SOC will shorten the life span of that expensive battery but you can depending on the BMS. Like discharge at 80% vs 70% where 70% gives you 3-5000 life cycles 80% might give 2-3000 life cycles. Either one is definitely longer than I will be able to drive probably given my age right now. I am going to try connecting to Larry again today and when I get a definitive answer about this particular battery I will post it here - concerning overcharge at > 93%. That is my one remaining real concern with dropping one of the 200AH batts in (aside from the wife and my check book screaming WHY).
Who is Larry?
__________________
2018 (2017 Sprinter Cab Chassis) Navion24V + 2016 Wrangler JKU (sold @ ????) - 2016 Sunstar 26HE (sold @ 4600 miles) - 2002 Roadtrek C190P (sold @ 315,000kms)
Winterbagoal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2018, 02:28 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
kayak70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NW GA
Posts: 294
Larry is the person at LifeBlue or Starlight Solar who you will speak to when you call. Never met the man but I'm hoping to get positive answers. No hit today on a call so I sent an email. Unfortunately I have found that one battery at 200AH is the only one which fits perfectly with zero mods to the battery tray so I hope to get good info from him, particularly about the charge > 93% SOC. The question basically is how much does it shorten the cycle life or is it really something to worry about. On several of the custom installs by engineer types they have built in protections to shut it down to prevent overcharge with a fairly elaborate array of relays etc. I'm looking for a simple drop in replacement with no chopping of the tray and no hassle with the charging system, leave it as it is. Generator, alternator, solar - all no worries but I'm a dreamer. Now it does "bother" me that we have not connected on a phone call so far but that happens sometimes.
__________________
Bill & Brenda + Mia
Mobius Memories
'18V24D, '13 TiffinBR32, Tiffin 34TGA, '11 Aspect 30C, 06V23H, '00 HHikerII 5W
kayak70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2018, 04:41 PM   #23
Senior Member
 
kayak70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NW GA
Posts: 294
LifeBlue

For anyone interested or following the discussion I just found out AM Solar is now a dealer for the LifeBlue battery. Had a nice talk with them about the BMS. The BMS will definitely prevent overcharge so going over 93% is not going to be an issue. I sent an email with all my details, solar, converter, alternator and charge solenoid info and should have an answer in a while about whether or not this is a good drop in fit, specifically the 200 AH battery. Also might get them to replace the Zamp panels with rigid panels when I breeze that direction if appt is available.
__________________
Bill & Brenda + Mia
Mobius Memories
'18V24D, '13 TiffinBR32, Tiffin 34TGA, '11 Aspect 30C, 06V23H, '00 HHikerII 5W
kayak70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2018, 10:33 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
kayak70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NW GA
Posts: 294
I'll wait for future developments on the LiION side of things. Answers include some Maybe, possibly manual control of alternator charge or two 200AH batteries etc. I'll let you guys experiment, I'm going to do the battery tray mod and drop in two T-1275s and take the weight hit. Good luck. Found the T-1275s in stock at a golf cart store not too far away, pick them up tomorrow.
__________________
Bill & Brenda + Mia
Mobius Memories
'18V24D, '13 TiffinBR32, Tiffin 34TGA, '11 Aspect 30C, 06V23H, '00 HHikerII 5W
kayak70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
View 24D Refrigerator Issue kayak70 Winnebago Industries Owner's Forum 232 08-10-2020 08:21 AM
2018 Navion/View 24D Wayneey Winnebago Industries Owner's Forum 56 05-23-2018 07:53 PM
2018 Winnie View 24D weight specs KPaulson Winnebago Industries Owner's Forum 12 02-23-2018 06:27 PM

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.