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Old 09-07-2012, 12:59 PM   #1
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7.5 Quiet Diesel Gen, just finished issue(s) corrections

Gang,
I posted this on another forum but, I don't know who travels to other RV forums so, I thought the info might be useful to some. Long story short, I've had one issue for a while, developed a second and more serious one and, while doing an inspection for the problem on the second issue, I found a third.

1. Cold start issue. My gen would crank and crank and crank during cold starting situations without heating the glow plugs before it would start and when it did, it would put out a ton of white smoke 'till it was running correctly.

2. On a recent vacation, the gen quit while in hot weather during the use of the basement A/C. It was re-started several times, only to quit after just a few minutes of running. Upon learning how to analyze the issue, I found that codes are displayed on the lighted rocker switch on the generator itself. That little light, will flash a series of flashes and a short pause and then flash the same series again. The number of flashes before and after the short pause, represents a number in a troubleshooting section of the service manual for the gen. Mine flashed three times, short pause, then flash three times again. That's code for "Code 33". And, code 33 in the manual is "Over heat" condition. In the book, there's numerous possible causes and remedies for this problem.

3, Also while doing the inspection for the code 33 problem, I had the top panel of the generator off. I noticed I had multiple "pieces" of black, metallic substance stuck to any metal surface inside that generator. There were some rather large chunks of it too. Well, upon further and more detailed inspections, it was revealed that one of my magnets on the rotor for the generator, has self destructed and exploded in to a zillion pieces. It spread its guts to whatever was metal in that gen area.
Now, prior the code 33 shut down issue, that gen had never skipped a beat in both running and, output of 110VAC. But, I figure they put all those magnets on that rotor for a purpose. If one's missing, that's bound to be an issue sooner or later.


So, when I got home from the trip, I dove into this gen to seek out and find remedies to the issues at hand. First, the code 33. Well, long story short, the first and most likely candidate for the problem is the temp sensor. I figured I'd just change that out and see if that was the problem. Yeah sure. I destroyed the head of it trying to take it out.

As it turns out, I had to dismantle half that generator to get good access to the remaining part of that little sensor. In the end, I heated the housing it was threaded into and, "froze" the little sensor itself with a can of "Freeze" from a local hardware store in our area. It worked. I was able to ease the remaining portion of the sensor out without further damage.

But, and here's the kicker, in putting so much torque on that sensor, trying to get it backed out, I actually cracked the lower thermostat housing that it's threaded into. I didn't know I did that at the time.

So, I checked with the local Cummins/Onan center and found that a new rotor for the gen is right at $467.00, not including tax and shipping. So, I got lucky, found one on ebay, in perfect condition. I purchased it and had it shipped to my doorstep for $200.00. Getting to that rotor was tad bit of a hassle but, it's only nuts and bolts, a zillion of them to say the least. So, I did what I had to do and replaced that rotor and, the sensor.

I was putting anti-freeze back in prior to starting the gen up after all the repairs and noticed dripping from under the gen. Hmmmmm.

I checked everything I could and found no leaks. Then I increased the radius of the search area and found the problem. As stated, I'd cracked the lower thermostat housing. Well, back apart the whole generator came. And, based on how that lower thermostat housing is bolted on, I had to either disassemble the entire front of the motor or, remove the head. I chose removing the head. All in all, I had that head of in about 45 minutes. Not really all that bad of a deal.

In short, I replaced the head gasket, a new lower thermostat housing and the sensor and got it running last night, the 6th. A word of caution here. If, any of you THINK you might want to replace that sending unit, take great care if it's seized into the threads, like mine was. For if you put that much strain on it to try and remove it, you're more than likely going to crack that housing its sitting in. Definitely do the heat/freeze thing prior to using brute force.

It was a chore, but, a fun type job. One advantage some of us have is the fact that the gen slides out on a tray. On some coaches, it doesn't and other arrangement have to be made to do the work that I did. If any of you have any questions about the innards of that gen or, have the same code, PM me and I'll be very glad to assist in the dismantling of your gen to the point you can get at the parts needed to be replace. It's really not very hard at all.
Scott
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:28 PM   #2
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Scott, what was the condition of the radiator? Did it look like that contributed to the '33' error?
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:33 AM   #3
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Chris,
I took the advice of one or some of the folks on RV.net and just had the radiator checked out since it was already off. I could not tell anything simply by looking into the ends where the hoses go on. It was too far in to see if there was any corrosion or any form of clogging. I was at the mercy of the radiator shop on that. They called me and said it was clogged and it had to be rodded out. I took them for their word and gave them the go-a-head.

It was $95.00 to remove the top tank, rod it out and re-install the tank. I looked at it as, it's kind of good insurance. It's one of those things that, I couldn't tell if there was a bad flow prior to the rod out or not. All I know is, the gen would shut down, consistently with the code 33 showing on the rocker switch. Well, it's also one of those things that, since I changed the sensor and, had the radiator rodded out, WHICH one did the cure of the code 33? I suppose we'll never know.

I do know that it works now, and at least at the outside temp of around 85 degrees with the basement A/C on, there was no shut down what so ever, not even a hiccup. What ever was the cure, I'm glad it fixed it.
Scott
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Old 09-08-2012, 07:23 AM   #4
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Scott, having the radiator rodded out was a good move. When I take my coach to the local Cummins/Onan shop this winter for genny removal and the 1,000+ hour service, I will ask them to pull the rad and let me take it for cleaning. At 10 yrs, it is just good insurance as you said.

$95.00 doesn't sound too bad in today's market. When I was working for my Dad in his radiator shop in the late 1960's, we would pull a car radiator, rod it out, check/repair any leaks, paint it black and reinstall it for a whopping $12.50! Being a firefighter you will appreciate this....the paint we used for the radiators came in a 5 gallon can and it was thick like tar. We thinned it with Amoco unleaded 'white gas' before putting it in the spray gun. Talk about a flammable brew .
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Old 09-08-2012, 08:17 AM   #5
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Fire Up, do you have any pictures you can post? Would love to see your handy work in case one day......
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Old 09-08-2012, 09:43 AM   #6
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Fire Up, do you have any pictures you can post? Would love to see your handy work in case one day......
Well Bigd9, here 'ya go.
Here's the sensor, which is right out in the open but, very hard to get a wrench on due to it's surrounding, confined conditions. If it's siezed up in the theads, as mine was, (and based on reports from others who've replaced it, it happens a lot,) your work is cut out for you.


Here's what a new one looks like.

Many of you know the looks of that gen as it sits in it's tray. Here's what it looks like half torn down. The top, and what Onan referes to, the "back" panel is removed. Gents, while some things like this intimidate certain guys, this project was really not all that hard to do. Just a ton of nuts and bolts and, like a big puzzle, this piece comes off before that piece and so on. Then, it goes back together in the opposite.

Here's what is likely the cause of the Code "33" OVER HEAT condition. The hole diameter for the probe on the sensor is about twice as big as the probe itself. But, as you can see, the corrosion in the immediate area of the probe, does not allow for the coolant to actually contact/flow around the probe. Therefore, the probe #1, eventually get's too hot due to no flow conditions and, #2, will send false readings to the controll board and the gen has no choice but to react to false readings.


Now, not knowing all the exact details of how and what controls what in this gen, we're assuming the sensor also controls the cold start conditions too. In that, if the sensor is really cold, it tells the control board that and the control board tells the "glow plugs" to heat up, for a certain amount of time, prior to actually cranking the motor for start up. The colder the coolant is, the longer the time for heat up of the glow plugs is prior to starting. There's a chart in the service manual that tells the degrees vs the time for heat up.

Now, as stated, I also had a blown apart magnet, off the rotor condition too. So, while this gen was this far torn down, what harm is it to go just a bit further? Here's the rotor with the missing magnet.


Here's the stator, with lots of chunks/pieces of the disintegrated magnet stuck to it all over it. The magnet pieces were all over the inside of that generator, stuck to any metallic piece they could. I'm supprised it didn't do any more damage than it did, which is almost nothing.





There's a lot more to this story on side tracks but, I won't go into ALL the small details unless asked for. But, in this photo, you'll see the corroded terminals of the junction block that's basically out in the "open" and unprotected from the elements, even though it's inside the generator paneling. All the rest of the electrical connections are in sealed/better plugs. Since I could not find one locally and, the Cummins/Onan folks said it would take bit to get a new one to me, I decided to clean the contact points where the wires are clamped with a tiny rotory wire brush. It's way better now.


Since I chose to remove the head, to get the cracked, lower thermostat housing off, here's the picture of the little head.


And here's the picture of the damaged lower thermostat housing. In the parts book, which I've ordered from Cummins/Onan, this part is called the "Water pump flange" HUH?????? It has nothing to do with the water pump other than there's a little, rubber tube that goes from it to the water pump as a by-pass hose. Not sure what they were thinking when they labled it in the parts book.


The new, lower thermostat housing was $52.78, the head gasket was $46.00 and the gaskets for the lower and upper thermostat housings were about $2.50 to $3.00 each. The sensor was $17.02. The rotor, from Cummins/Onan is $467.00 but, I got the replacement off ebay for $200.00, shipped to my door. So, for around $325.00, and a bit of my time, somewhere around a total of 8-16 hours or more, it's now running fine, all situations/issues are cured and, we're ready for anther trip.

Knowing what I know now, and with the help of power tools (mini, battery powered impact guns etc.) I could most likely have that gen torn down to the point at the farthest I went, in about 30-45 minutes. And that includes removing the front of the painted, section of the front of the motorhome that slides out with the gen. Hope this might help anyone if and when you might run into the same issues. Surely let me know if I can help in that situation. Be glad to.
Scott
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:39 AM   #7
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Thats amazing! You are right when you say
"Knowing what I know now, and with the help of power tools (mini, battery powered impact guns etc.) I could most likely have that gen torn down to the point at the farthest I went, in about 30-45 minutes".
That is so true of a lot of things. When I worked on my propane generator, I had to raise the front of the coach, and drop the generator down, and roll it out on a mechanics creeper just to repair it. First time was a day long event, but the second time went much faster!


Good job there Scott, and I'll bet you feel good about the outcome! As the A team character Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith" says "I love it when a plan comes together!"

Good Job! And thanks for the pictures.
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:58 PM   #8
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A friend with a 2004 Journey with the QD 7500 generator has the same issues and codes after running an hour or so. Has anyone replaced the temp sensor or rodded the radiator on this model? I have looked at it with him and it seems we would have to pull the generator from below since there is no generator slide, which does not look like fun.
Any Journey owners pulled their generator?
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:53 PM   #9
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A friend with a 2004 Journey with the QD 7500 generator has the same issues and codes after running an hour or so. Has anyone replaced the temp sensor or rodded the radiator on this model? I have looked at it with him and it seems we would have to pull the generator from below since there is no generator slide, which does not look like fun.
Any Journey owners pulled their generator?
Yoda2405,
Not knowing any reason for Winne to have a different model than our Itasca of the same year, I'd see no reason that it would not be the same exact generator as we have. And if so, then you answered your own question. Ours is the: HDKAJ model, speck "H". Have him look at the serial number, model number and spec to see if it's the same. Then, again, if so, he can PM me here, through you if he's not a member or, have him join this forum and then PM me and I'd be glad to assist in the disassembly "AFTER" he's removed the gen from the coach.

Disconnecting the fuel lines, electrical lines and battery lines are easy. Again, if your friends is like ours, there's a plate, right in the middle of the top panel that comes off with four, 6mm-hex head screws. Under that plate is a lifting ring, that's moulded into the bell housing. Now, is that supposed to support the entire weight of the gen/engine? I would assume so. After all, it's a very small. 12HP, 3 cyl Kubota Diesel and, a 25lb rotor and about the same weight on the stator. So, I'm pretty sure that lifting ring will do the trick.

But, since I've not looked into how a non-slide tray gen is removed, I can't guaranty that's the way they do it. I'm just speculating here. If any one's seen one removed or, actually done it, feel free to chime in and inform us how it's done. I'm interested.
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Old 09-09-2012, 06:20 AM   #10
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Quote:
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Yoda2405,
Not knowing any reason for Winne to have a different model than our Itasca of the same year, I'd see no reason that it would not be the same exact generator as we have. And if so, then you answered your own question. Ours is the: HDKAJ model, speck "H". Have him look at the serial number, model number and spec to see if it's the same. Then, again, if so, he can PM me here, through you if he's not a member or, have him join this forum and then PM me and I'd be glad to assist in the disassembly "AFTER" he's removed the gen from the coach.

Disconnecting the fuel lines, electrical lines and battery lines are easy. Again, if your friends is like ours, there's a plate, right in the middle of the top panel that comes off with four, 6mm-hex head screws. Under that plate is a lifting ring, that's moulded into the bell housing. Now, is that supposed to support the entire weight of the gen/engine? I would assume so. After all, it's a very small. 12HP, 3 cyl Kubota Diesel and, a 25lb rotor and about the same weight on the stator. So, I'm pretty sure that lifting ring will do the trick.

But, since I've not looked into how a non-slide tray gen is removed, I can't guaranty that's the way they do it. I'm just speculating here. If any one's seen one removed or, actually done it, feel free to chime in and inform us how it's done. I'm interested.
I have the same set up with my Journey. While I've not had mine out yet, I have thoroughly inspected it and confirmed with a contact at Winnebago that, after disconnecting the fuel and electrical lines, removal of four bolts at the bottom releases the genset. However, the coach must be lifted enough for the genset to clear once it is lowered.
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:17 AM   #11
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Here's what is likely the cause of the Code "33" OVER HEAT condition. The hole diameter for the probe on the sensor is about twice as big as the probe itself. But, as you can see, the corrosion in the immediate area of the probe, does not allow for the coolant to actually contact/flow around the probe. Therefore, the probe #1, eventually get's too hot due to no flow conditions and, #2, will send false readings to the controll board and the gen has no choice but to react to false readings.
This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized %1%2 and weights %3.


In this picture, you call it corrosion. How old was the antifreeze? Almost looks like crystals or some sort of gel. Think this stuff came from aluminum corrosion? I can see why the radiator was also clogged. Boy, one never knows the condition of an engine till it is all apart.

Once again, good job.
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:44 AM   #12
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Code 33

I have an 04 Journey and last month my Gen was reading a code 33. Appairently this is common and eventually everyone will have this issue. I had to take it to our local Cummins shop in Renton Wa. and they had to raise the Journey, pull the genset out to replace the sensor. Cost was about $710.00 to replace a twelve dollar part. I had an extended warrenty that I purchased which paid for almost all of it. I only wished that the genset was on a tray.......
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Old 09-09-2012, 12:56 PM   #13
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I have the same set up with my Journey. While I've not had mine out yet, I have thoroughly inspected it and confirmed with a contact at Winnebago that, after disconnecting the fuel and electrical lines, removal of four bolts at the bottom releases the genset. However, the coach must be lifted enough for the genset to clear once it is lowered.
Well Sml,
You see, I learn something every day. That rather large "loop" that's molded into the bellhousing, must be for purposes other than removal and install of the gen from the coach. Besides, if yours and most others are like mine, there's minimal room for a boom to hook on to that hook so, I suspect that all the non-sliding gens will be removed from the bottom. What a pain.
Scott

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In this picture, you call it corrosion. How old was the antifreeze? Almost looks like crystals or some sort of gel. Think this stuff came from aluminum corrosion? I can see why the radiator was also clogged. Boy, one never knows the condition of an engine till it is all apart.

Once again, good job.
Bigd9,
Well Sir, I do call it corrosion, for lack of a better or more educated term. In the old days, (real old) as in the '50s and '60s, there was almost NO aluminum used in auto engines and whatever type anti-freeze, if any, that was used waaaaaaaaay back then, didn't last very long at all and 99% of us saw RUST inside a cooling system quite often. Well, it's been decades since I've seen rust. But, this "corrosion" is still present. The anti-freeze in this unit looks like it came right out of the Prestone coolant jug. It looked flawless as I drained it. I didn't get a chance to do a test on it with the specific gravity tester but, I just trusted it. I'll get a chance to test it very soon. It's not hard to drain.

As stated, that sensor is in a small "tunnel" and there's not very much "flow" that is in direct contact with it. If it were in the mainstream of flowing coolant, my guess is that there would be way less of the issues that are cause of the codes and other problems. Just a guess here. But, due to the fact that, that sensor is a different metal (brass) and the combination of low flow characteristics around it, the intensity and speed at which the corrosion accumulates, this issue WILL crop up again, just about guaranteed unless, there's some chemical that can be inserted into the cooling system to elmininate ALL corrosion, permanantly.
Scott

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed O. View Post
I have an 04 Journey and last month my Gen was reading a code 33. Appairently this is common and eventually everyone will have this issue. I had to take it to our local Cummins shop in Renton Wa. and they had to raise the Journey, pull the genset out to replace the sensor. Cost was about $710.00 to replace a twelve dollar part. I had an extended warrenty that I purchased which paid for almost all of it. I only wished that the genset was on a tray.......
Ed O,
Well Sir, yep, we got lucky on this coach. That gen is on a sliding tray and so far, it's been a god-send for at a minimum of two reasons. The first time it was of real value was when my sliding step cover for the passenger quit working. Long story short ( I do that a lot) I slid that gen all the way out and crawled up under there and sat up in the void. I looked up and there was the access panel for that sliding step cover. I removed it and was able to inspect all the mechanism for that sliding step.

The second time if of course, the recent repair of the gen itself. It sure made for easy (almost) access for all the zillion hex heaeded 6 mm bolts that secure all the paneling.

You know, this situation is just like a "battery" tray situation. There are numerous coaches out there that you have to lift the batteries into the compartments and then "man handle" them into position in the back of the compartment for multiple batteries. Talk about a pain, that should be illegal for them to build them that way due to the possible risk of back and other injuries. Oh well, we live with what we've got. And we work around the bad parts.
Scott
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Old 06-07-2017, 05:58 AM   #14
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scot.what effort in your article.I am a FD from NY are you still around? I know its been a while since you wrote this article.and yes it happened to me.I would love to talk with you.actional56@yahoo.com
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