Intermittent starting on 1994 Vectra

[rrb]

We have been having an intermittent starting issue. We get the dreaded tick-tick-tick. I let it sit for a few minutes, and sometimes it starts, sometimes the MOM switch will work, sometimes jumping the battery works, and sometimes running the generator works. Eventually, it starts.

Here is what I have done in an attempt to resolve the issue: I checked voltages at the coach battery, the house batteries, and at the starter. The coach battery is generally around 12.8V, and the house battery is around 13.4V. I went ahead and replaced all the batteries since they were 4 years old and it was about time. That didn’t solve the issue.

I have a solar panel setup that keeps the house batteries charged and a Trik-L-Start for the coach battery (which works great).

After reviewing the Body Wiring Diagram, I decided to change out the MOM solenoid since pushing the MOM switch sometimes worked and sometimes didn’t. That didn’t solve the issue.

Then I moved on to researching and reviewing the Automotive Wiring Diagram - Ford, which I believe is the correct diagram for my coach. I read that the likely culprits could be the starter relay or the starter solenoid. I couldn’t find anything on locating the starter relay, but I found a bank of Ford relays. None said starter relay, but there was an acc, alt acc, and the others were for things like the horn, etc. In swapping the relays out, I thought I had found the issue until the next trip, when the starting issue occurred again. I finally decided to replace all the Ford relays, but that still didn’t solve the issue. Then I moved on to the starter solenoid, but I’m still having the issue.

Next on the list would be the starter itself or maybe the battery disconnect solenoid.
But before doing that, I wanted to get some advice from this forum about some odd things—imagined or real. When the coach won’t start, I usually turn it off, wait a few minutes, and try again. I thought I noticed an intermittent quiet buzzing electrical sound from the dash instruments when I turn the key to acc. Sometimes, it seems like it starts after that. I opened the dash but can’t find anything suspicious. Another thing I noticed is that it seems to not start more often when it’s been hooked to shore power for a few days. It almost always starts when it’s been stored in the yard for months with the solar/trickle charge setup. I always leave the solar turned on.

I have attached photos of the Ford relays and MOM and battery disconnect
solenoids
thanks,
Rich


Links to wiring diagrams.
Automotive Wiring Diagram - Ford
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...994/112140.pdf
Body Wiring Diagram
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...994/111436.pdf
Front End Wiring Installation
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...994/111456.pdf

[rrb]

Your description of the issue is quite thorough. Here's a breakdown and some suggestions based on what you've shared:
Observations:

• Intermittent Starting Issue: The ticking sound (often caused by low voltage to the starter) suggests it's a power issue. But the fact that sometimes it starts after waiting a bit, trying the MOM switch, or using the jump-start procedure means the system is borderline functional but not reliably consistent.
• Voltage Checks: Your coach battery (12.8V) and house battery (13.4V) voltages seem good, which indicates the batteries aren't the immediate problem, especially after replacing them.
• Solar and Trik-L-Start: Both of these should be helping maintain the charge, so it's good that the battery maintenance is being managed well.
• MOM Solenoid Replacement: Since pushing the MOM switch sometimes worked, replacing the solenoid was a reasonable first step. The fact that it didn’t solve the issue suggests it might not be the primary culprit.
• Ford Relays: It's good you checked the relays. The "buzzing" noise you hear could be coming from the relays or the control module trying to engage a component that isn't receiving enough power.

Possible Culprits:

1. Starter Relay and/or Solenoid: The fact that you couldn’t find a clear starter relay and had to swap others out could indicate that the starter relay is hidden somewhere else, or it’s integrated into the control module. If the starter solenoid was replaced, but you're still experiencing issues, it might be worth re-checking the wiring and the solenoid's integrity, as these can be tricky to diagnose visually.
2. Ground Connection Issues: Sometimes, an intermittent starting issue is linked to poor grounding. Even though everything appears to be wired correctly, corrosion or a loose ground could cause inconsistent voltage to the starter. It might be worth inspecting all grounding points, especially around the starter and engine block.
3. Battery Disconnect Solenoid: This is a solid next step. If the battery disconnect solenoid is faulty, it could be cutting off power to the starter intermittently. The fact that it starts more reliably after sitting with the solar trickle charge could be a sign that the battery disconnect solenoid or its wiring is at fault (e.g., it could be loosely engaging or disengaging under certain conditions).
4. Starter Itself: If the starter motor is on its way out, it could be causing the tick-tick-tick noise and failure to start. This could especially be the case if it works intermittently.
5. Shore Power and Charging: The fact that it tends to not start as often after being hooked to shore power suggests there might be a voltage regulation issue. Sometimes, external power sources (like shore power) can affect the battery voltage in ways that a solar setup wouldn’t. You might want to inspect the charging system, including the transfer switch, for any inconsistencies or faults that might be preventing the batteries from charging properly.
6. Electrical Noise / Buzzing: The buzzing sound from the dash could point to an issue with a relay, control module, or power delivery system. It might be something like the starter relay or a related component not functioning smoothly, causing irregularities in the voltage or power delivery to the starter.

Next Steps:

1. Check all Grounds: Inspect and clean all grounds related to the starter, battery disconnect, and solenoid.
2. Test Starter: You could have the starter tested at a shop to see if it's failing intermittently.
3. Check Battery Disconnect Solenoid: Test it for proper engagement/disengagement.
4. Inspect Charging System: Since shore power seems to affect the issue, the charging system and connections might be worth a deeper dive.
5. Trace the Buzzing: If possible, try to trace the source of the buzzing sound and correlate it with any starting issues. It could provide a clue to a faulty relay or electrical component.

[d23haynes57]

Originally Posted by rrb

We have been having an intermittent starting issue. We get the dreaded tick-tick-tick. I let it sit for a few minutes, and sometimes it starts, sometimes the MOM switch will work, sometimes jumping the battery works, and sometimes running the generator works. Eventually, it starts.

Here is what I have done in an attempt to resolve the issue: I checked voltages at the coach battery, the house batteries, and at the starter. The coach battery is generally around 12.8V, and the house battery is around 13.4V. I went ahead and replaced all the batteries since they were 4 years old and it was about time. That didn’t solve the issue.

I have a solar panel setup that keeps the house batteries charged and a Trik-L-Start for the coach battery (which works great).

After reviewing the Body Wiring Diagram, I decided to change out the MOM solenoid since pushing the MOM switch sometimes worked and sometimes didn’t. That didn’t solve the issue.

Then I moved on to researching and reviewing the Automotive Wiring Diagram - Ford, which I believe is the correct diagram for my coach. I read that the likely culprits could be the starter relay or the starter solenoid. I couldn’t find anything on locating the starter relay, but I found a bank of Ford relays. None said starter relay, but there was an acc, alt acc, and the others were for things like the horn, etc. In swapping the relays out, I thought I had found the issue until the next trip, when the starting issue occurred again. I finally decided to replace all the Ford relays, but that still didn’t solve the issue. Then I moved on to the starter solenoid, but I’m still having the issue.

Next on the list would be the starter itself or maybe the battery disconnect solenoid.
But before doing that, I wanted to get some advice from this forum about some odd things—imagined or real. When the coach won’t start, I usually turn it off, wait a few minutes, and try again. I thought I noticed an intermittent quiet buzzing electrical sound from the dash instruments when I turn the key to acc. Sometimes, it seems like it starts after that. I opened the dash but can’t find anything suspicious. Another thing I noticed is that it seems to not start more often when it’s been hooked to shore power for a few days. It almost always starts when it’s been stored in the yard for months with the solar/trickle charge setup. I always leave the solar turned on.

I have attached photos of the Ford relays and MOM and battery disconnect
solenoids
thanks,
Rich


Links to wiring diagrams.
Automotive Wiring Diagram - Ford
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...994/112140.pdf
Body Wiring Diagram
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...994/111436.pdf
Front End Wiring Installation
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...994/111456.pdf

What is the battery voltage while you are trying start it? You need a meter and a helper. What is the voltage at the starter solenoid coil while it is energized? For you year the starter solenoid is powered from the ignition switch in series with the neutral safety switch, or these 2 switches are operating a relay. These circuits could have excessive resistance due to a bad connection or corroded, damage wiring. 30-year-old wires sometimes need to be replaced. Have you also checked the engine grounds? Battery cables ca also look good but have bad connections at the ends. From that error some battery cables were aluminum or copper clad aluminum. You need to look for voltage drops for both starter power and the ignition, solenoid circuit.

[rrb]

Thanks Dennis.

The battery voltage at battery looks good at 12.8 or so when starting.

I have had checking the voltage at starter on my list but not having a helper and timing have been an issue. I have created a 30ft long extension for my meter so I can check the voltage when having issues but with it being intermittent, its been a challenge. Also, when we are on our way, I can't always setup the check for voltage. The Rv is stored at a yard, which is another issue. I will get it done though.

I did check ground at starter and it looked good. I will try following other cables looking for loose or anything suspicious.

I have read of others questioning ignition switch, but seems unlikely.

[SafariBen]

Originally Posted by rrb

Thanks Dennis.
... I have created a 30ft long extension for my meter so I can check the voltage when having issues but with it being intermittent, its been a challenge...

You're on the right track. Hook that extension semi permanently to the small wires on the solenoid, and observe the voltage when it does start. Then leave it installed and observe when it doesn't start, that will cut the problem in half, you're either dealing with a starter/solenoid, or you're dealing with the control circuitry (more likely).

[David 70]

It sounds like in the original post he's not sure what engine he has.

[Skip426]

I'm not positive if this location for the starter relay on F-53 chassis is good for your vintage , but here are pictures showing the relay and location on 99/00 chassis.
Passenger front wheel area on the side of the radiator mount panel .

[rrb]

The engine is a 230 HP Cummins Turbo Diesel with a 6 Speed Allisson Automatic Transmission

[rrb]

I have crawled up and down the underneath and I have not been able to find a relay. I think I will make another attempt when I run the wires for voltage check at solenoid as recommended by SafariBen.

thanks

[Flyer15015]

rrb,
Based on pictures # 3&4 in your first post, I would start by cleaning all those stacked up wire ends on the solenoid posts.
Have you tried turning the key to the ON position and just waiting a few seconds, to give the systems a chance to talk to each other before hitting start?
I do that even on my gasser.

Just an idea.

Mike in Colorado

[rrb]

I will give it a try. I will be replacing the battery disconnect so that will be a good time to clean them up while batteries are disconnected.

thanks

[Skip426]

Originally Posted by rrb

The engine is a 230 HP Cummins Turbo Diesel with a 6 Speed Allisson Automatic Transmission

Sorry ; a member had posted Ford wiring info , so I thought that your chassis was F-53 .

[rrb]

No worries. I appreciate any information and assistance.

thanks

[Skip426]

Do you have chassis manufacturer info ?

Freightliner ? Oshkosh ?