Free 7 Day Trial RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Free 7 Day Trial ×
RV Trip Planning Discussions

Go Back   iRV2 Forums > THE OWNER'S CORNER FORUMS > Newmar Owner's Forum
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-28-2021, 04:40 PM   #57
Senior Member
 
Mle75749's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Mooresville Indiana
Posts: 133
Winnebago Effect

I’ll preface my comments with the fact my uncle has owned 2 Winnies even while complaining about the crappy manufacturing process…. We like what we like, I guess.
When the buyout was announced I was confident Newmar would keep the quality. When Mr Miller left, I was less so. I’ve seen the production process through a tour when we ordered our 2020. We’ve been back to Nappanee for service but not a tour. Your photos speak volumes and I don’t believe that would have been acceptable before. I will say I was surprised that a spring issue with our bedroom slide was a retail repair for us when this very slide had warranty work done. A spring shouldn’t fail with 10k miles on $400k coach.
People will need to complain and leave to a higher end coach to make the point I guess which is sad.
Mle75749 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 11-28-2021, 05:01 PM   #58
Senior Member
 
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 218
Just like in High School (eons ago).

Reputations are easy to lose nearly impossible to restore.
Kountry_star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2021, 05:16 PM   #59
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 241
Considering what a Newmar cost $$$ I would only do my PDI before delivery and at the FACTORY. I would be prepared to stay a few days or leave my future Coach with the factory to correct all problems found on my PDI a list. And only return when they , the Factory say it has had all problems solved. Then I would spend at least 2 nights staying in it at the factory to test and use every system on the Coach..Yes I know this sounds like a trouble ,,but you can take care of the problems now in only a few days or spend months in the future dealing with these problems at home…. (Ask me how I know , taking delivery at Factory is the Only way to do it)
Florida Rang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2021, 06:04 PM   #60
Senior Member
 
mak1's Avatar
 
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Florence, Or.
Posts: 158
I wish I could afford one of these rigs so I could get in on the conversation...
__________________
Peter and Janice, cat Tootsie, Dip 38 pst, 2000 wrangler
mak1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2021, 06:06 PM   #61
Senior Member
 
redbaron73's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,452
Blog Entries: 4
Let's stay on topic.

This has nothing to do where you take delivery of your coach, but rather the poor quality coming out.

The issues I outlined are present in coaches that had factory delivery and dealer delivery..

These defects are not being noticed by consumers, and newmar is not going out of their way to fix them unless the customer notices it and requests corrective action.

Regardless of where you take delivery, you need to diligently inspect your paint, wood, and tile work.
__________________
2022 London Aire 4551 * 2022 GD Imagine 2800BH * 2021 RAM 3500 DRW * 2020 Wrangler
HAM: WD4LOW NHSO (Newmar Hoot, Sevierville Original)
Kindness Matters
redbaron73 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2021, 06:20 PM   #62
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 7
Not a Winnebago problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMcG View Post
redbaron73,
That is one helluva report. You must have spent a lot of time putting all that information together. I probably could not have put together such an extensive report myself.

As for as Newmar goes I can't give a lot of information on quality as I do not have one of their newer models. I must have gotten mine before quality control went down hill. I have a 2016 VTDP 3725 and I have had very few problems with it. I have had some minor issues but nothing big time. I think Newmar knew years before we did that they would be purchased by Winnebago. There is a possibility that is where the quality starting going down hill. Nothing to do with Winnebago QC, as I think they have excellent coaches too. When you are faced with the unknown, things just don't work like they should. With everyones input I think Newmar will get it all worked out. They are a great company and I think they will continue to be.

JMcG
2016 VTDP 3725
I am thinking about a ew King Aire but the cost is ridiculous. I won’t do a thing until I know they are at last working on the slide issues which have been a topic in the owners forum for years - before Winnebago. I was hoping that along with great new design , we would get the slide problem fixed. Does anyone know the genesis of the slide problem.
bugeye707 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2021, 06:26 PM   #63
Senior Member
 
redbaron73's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,452
Blog Entries: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Davis View Post
Just read all 4 pages of this thread for the first time. I have 3 thoughts in no specific order:



1. Swirl marks in paint are easily "hidden" with wax or paint sealer as swirl marks are simply fine line scratches in the surface of the paint. The wax, while it is there, partially to fully fills in the scratches making then seemingly disappear. Problem is a few washings later using too much soap, or too warm water, or too aggressive a wash mitt removes the wax and son of a gun, those swirls are really still there.

When cut and buff is done correctly, the surface becomes scratch free PRIOR to any paint protection being applied such as wax, ceramic coating, etc. My message here is don't settle for a buff and wax, that is not a cut and buff.
I agree. Do not allow anyone to put wax on your coach. Make sure no sealants are used when correction is done.

Once you inspect the quality, then a ceramic coating can be applied or a hand wax. Only after verification that no swirls or micro scratches exist.
Quote:

2. The RV dealership network is woefully understaffed with quality, properly trained employees. It's just the nature of the beast. If you are ordering a brand new Newmar, pay the extra fee for factory delivery. It is my personal opinion that that is the only option to potentially drive away with a mostly perfect product. They have the trained staff, and they have the parts even if it means grabbing it from the assembly line. Save yourselves months to years of aggravation.
I disagree. Most people taking fpu are waiting 8 weeks extra to get in, and still having the same issues outlined. They also paid several thousand more for this experience.

Your dealer should be able to provide the same delivery, along with your inspection. You can then open a service request directly with Newmar and get scheduled for repairs at the service center or other location capable of handling the repair, based on what is found.

Please note, this is different strategy than I have previously posted about and what I previously did with my 2019 and 2013.

The employment issue is real, and the pressure to turn over units has never been higher.

Instead of waiting 8 weeks for a delivery, I recommend you get your coach asap, and then get inline for repairs. Newmar has many options besides the factory service center.
__________________
2022 London Aire 4551 * 2022 GD Imagine 2800BH * 2021 RAM 3500 DRW * 2020 Wrangler
HAM: WD4LOW NHSO (Newmar Hoot, Sevierville Original)
Kindness Matters
redbaron73 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2021, 06:28 PM   #64
Senior Member
 
redbaron73's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,452
Blog Entries: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugeye707 View Post
I am thinking about a ew King Aire but the cost is ridiculous. I won’t do a thing until I know they are at last working on the slide issues which have been a topic in the owners forum for years - before Winnebago. I was hoping that along with great new design , we would get the slide problem fixed. Does anyone know the genesis of the slide problem.
There is no widespread slide problem with any current Newmar production.
__________________
2022 London Aire 4551 * 2022 GD Imagine 2800BH * 2021 RAM 3500 DRW * 2020 Wrangler
HAM: WD4LOW NHSO (Newmar Hoot, Sevierville Original)
Kindness Matters
redbaron73 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2021, 06:33 PM   #65
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron73 View Post
I am writing this post regarding the quality of Newmar coaches, and how the lack of quality control is currently affecting production.

In this post, I am going to show several examples of current production coaches being delivered to actual owners. I am intentionally not naming the dealers and or owners of the coach, as it is not my intent to get involved with a specific issue, but rather to discuss the overall quality of Newmar, and to make other new owners aware of poor construction. If you wish to name your coach, that is fine. Please do not name other people’s coaches. Also please refrain from naming the dealer, as the dealer is not responsible for the build and construction of the coach. This is a Newmar Corporate issue, and we need to all work together to get Newmar to listen to its owners.

Just like my campaign in 2019 to force Newmar and Freightliner to acknowledge a serious safety issue, I am once again calling on owners to act. Unless owners speak up, Newmar will have no incentive to correct the quality on the production line. Once enough owners bring up the same issue, and real costs are associated with the corrective repair, Newmar will make changes on the production to prevent future issues. This applies to all production lines of Newmar coaches, and all owners within their one-year warranty. It is especially important for those that are taking new delivery to bring this up at the time of delivery.

Do not expect Newmar or your dealer to notice this or to have resolved the problem. You are the only one that will look for quality issues and only when you bring it to your dealer’s attention will Newmar be made aware of the problem.

Why? The answer is simple economics. Most people do not notice the quality. They are looking at the coach with “rose colored glasses” and feel very intimidated by all the technology and luxury.

Newmar is balancing the cost of correcting all coach’s vs correcting only the ones that notice the quality issues and take the steps to get it corrected. You will likely be told things like “This is how they all are” or “this is acceptable”. I am giving you the information you need to push back against this, and to be armed with what is the expected quality.

It is my intention to educate the buyers of Newmar motor homes so that with one united voice we can make it very clear that poor quality will not be accepted.


WHY DID WE CHOOSE NEWMAR?

Matt Miller says it best, on the main page of https://www.newmarcorp.com

Hand Built Coaches built one at a time implies superior quality and craftsmanship. In fact—Matt said that in the second sentence
So now we have the standard that Newmar promised us. That is why we purchased a Newmar. Newmar is responsible for all aspects of the coach it delivers. Newmar does not manufacture every component used in their motor homes. Items like electronics, air conditioning, appliances, etc. are not under the direct control of Newmar and are beyond the scope of my call to action.

I am focusing on the three areas that represent the craftsmanship and skilled labor of the Newmar coach: Exterior Paint & Body, Interior Woodwork, Tile flooring, backsplash and showers.

Exterior Paint

Newmar has a full section of their website dedicated to Paint & Exterior. You can find this on their main website by navigating to the “Why Newmar” and choosing the link “Paint and Exterior”. The page is found here: https://www.newmarcorp.com/why-newma...rpiece-finish/

Newmar uses an automotive paint process. Those that have worked in auto body understand that there are 3 major steps. Prep – Paint – Finish.

Paint Prep

Prep is when the surface is cleaned, all foreign objects have been removed, surfaces are sanded smooth, and non-painted surfaces are taped off and protected.

This crucial step is often left to unskilled labor, or cheap labor, because it is so time consuming. All body shops use the least talented person for this prep stage. A good painter will inspect the work done in a very detailed, intense inspection covering the entire painted surface. The inspection time on a small corvette can easily take an hour if it is a full paint job. This inspection is always done by the person that will be doing the painting because “EVERY INCH MATTERS” – taken again from Newmar’s website.
Attachment 349506Attachment 349507

When surface prep is not done properly, dust particles end up under the paint. The coaches I have inspected from Newmar are littered with dust below the paint. These are referred to as “dust-inclusions”. Each of these should be marked and identified.

You may decide that a small percentage of dust inclusions is acceptable. I recently inspected a 2022 Luxury line coach that had 17 markings noticeable below the slides on one side. This is a 45 ft coach. That represents 37% based on linear footage of that small section—below the slides. To me, this is beyond acceptable and warrants a repair. Getting on a ladder and inspecting higher areas would give a more accurate representation of the defect rate.


Info Source: https://www.glasurit.com/uk/dust-inclusions

https://www.ikeuchi.eu/news/paint-de...in-automotive/
https://corporate.ppg.com/getmedia/3...n-Training.pdf

Painting
The process of applying paint takes a lot of skill to properly balance between not enough paint and too much paint that causes a run. My observations of many 2022 Newmar coaches are showing a drastic increase in running paint near lighting holes, corners, and other areas of the body that have a curve to them. These are spots where the person holding the spray gun, with the attached hose is having to change an angle to get paint on the surface. That change of angle is restricted by their equipment and location. Unlike automotive where chassis are dipped, or a robot with a fully articulating arm is applying the paint, humans are very limited. A skilled painter knows how to time their paint pass for these areas, and to plan the steps for each surface. The paint jobs for I have seen for 2021 and 2022 show a lot more runs than is normal. It is never acceptable to have a run in your paint and must be dealt with. This will require sanding, and additional clear coat to properly fix.

BASF describes paint runs, with a few examples in this article:

https://www.glasurit.com/uk/runs
Attachment 349508

The best way to find a run is to examine every inch of your paint surface in daylight. Especially around areas where lights, doors, and other accessories attach to the surface. Cutouts for taillights, headlights, and around the curves.

Runs are a costly mistake to fix once the coach has been clear coated. The run was noticed by the painter during paint. That was the best time to correct the problem. The coach would need to dry, then the area with the run wet sanded and repainted. This takes time and stops a production line.

Newmar has made the decision to not stop or delay production to fix the problem, and to ship it as-is.

With a Newmar full body paint, there are multiple paint layers. Each layer is done with a very large template that is applied to the surface to make the tape lines easier to deal with. The process Newmar uses is very good, and I have not seen any examples of razor blade damage to the surface paint.

The final layer is the clear coat. This layer is responsible for the shine as well as protecting the paint. A proper application of clear coat will make the difference between a dull coach and one that shines. When clear coat is sprayed, it is usually put on thicker than the paint. If the painter intends to “cut and buff”, then there will be multiple layers of clear coat sprayed to add thickness for the final detailing step. A coach that does not get the cut and buff will have a very thin layer of clear coat.

The cut and buff process is also referred to as paint correction. This process is done in 1 or more stages where a compound is applied to the clearcoat and polished using pads. The number of stages determines the types of polishes and pads, and how much shine the product will have. A king Aire will always look deeper than a Dutch star due to the number of stages performed by the factory.

This is an area that Newmar has always struggled with. The cut and buff process is intended to make the coach look better, but often leaves a coach full of swirl marks that will destroy the overall appearance.
100% of all Newmar coaches are affected by this problem. It takes a trained eye to spot a swirl mark, and the correct lighting. When the lighting is correct, you will see what appears to be spider webs in your paint. Darker colors show it more than lighter colors do, but all the colors have it. I have never seen a factory painted coach leave Newmar without these swirl marks.

I have not watched the process of a Newmar coach to know when the swirl marks are getting put on the coach, and I have blamed the cut and buff for these as an assumption. It is very possible that the Newmar detail crew is responsible for these marks in their wash procedures. BASF clear coat is extremely soft and can easily take 3 months to harden properly. Washing a coach in the first 3 months should only be done with non-touch methods. Lambswool, microfiber, or any other material should never be used in the first 3 months after painting with BASF clear coats. This is where most coaches develop micro scratches and swirls.

If you notice these during your PDI--- point them out and get them documented for correction. Once the swirls have been corrected, you need to make sure that only touch free washes are done until the clear coat has hardened, and you have applied a proper protection layer of either wax or ceramic coating. I will cover proper washing techniques in a separate post.

You will not be successful in seeking warranty coverage for swirl marks that you discover after your PDI. Your only recourse will be to have a 1-stage paint correction done. The cost of a single stage paint correction is between $3,000 and $6,000.

My 2019 Dutch star was factory delivered with swirl marks. I did not know enough about the issue at the time to make a proper case for warranty repair, although I did point them out. I left the factory with the understanding that they would be repairing the swirl marks but chose to have it done on my own. Here is an example of the paint swirls before repair:
Attachment 349511Attachment 349510Attachment 349509

After a single stage paint correction, not only did the swirl marks disappear, but the paint itself came to life. A proper single stage or 2 stage cut and buff will give the same results, but the paint will quickly become damaged after an improper wash. Here are the results of a single stage correction.
Attachment 349512Attachment 349513Attachment 349514
Paint – Exterior Summary

Inspect your paint. If you find runs or dust inclusions – report it to Newmar. During the first year of ownership, the warranty clearly covers these items. This will affect your resale value if your paint has these types of flaws, and it affects the overall appearance of the coach. Use painter’s tape to mark each area, and then take pictures. You can not have too much documentation.

DURING PDI – Inspect for paint swirls. Make sure you look at your coach in different angles of sun and from different distances and angles. Some micro swirls show up under direct light, and some from refracted light.

Any paint swirls found should be documented and put thru as a warranty item. If Newmar declines this work, then it is on your dealer to fix it, as they are the most likely to source of the problem and the reason Newmar is declining the repair. You will not have the option to get this corrected after you leave with your coach.

If you choose to ignore the paint swirls, be aware that it will cost a minimum charge of $3,000.00 to fix this in the future.




..continued on next post..
To have a dealer handle a factory problem just asks for more problems. Maybe outsource an inspector before the coach goes to the dealer. Dealers are not carpenters and large scale paint projects.
Don't accept a coach with defects. It's not a $50,000.00 vehicle that can be completed correctly at a dealer due to size. I think all defects should go back to the factory and when the factory has to seize operations due to poor workmanship they will correct their ways quickly
dchrismer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2021, 07:06 PM   #66
Senior Member
 
redbaron73's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,452
Blog Entries: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchrismer View Post
To have a dealer handle a factory problem just asks for more problems. Maybe outsource an inspector before the coach goes to the dealer. Dealers are not carpenters and large scale paint projects.

Don't accept a coach with defects. It's not a $50,000.00 vehicle that can be completed correctly at a dealer due to size. I think all defects should go back to the factory and when the factory has to seize operations due to poor workmanship they will correct their ways quickly
Each situation is different. There is no way to make a blanket statement regarding who should repair.

3 parties are involved in the decision. The customer, dealer, and Newmar.

The owner does not have the ability to inspect the coach prior to dealer taking possession, nor can they have it inspected prior to dealer taking possession.

The dealer owns the coach until the customer pays the dealer.

Lastly,all RVs are accepted with defects. I fully expect that my coach will have defects and I will accept it.

The entire purpose of this post is to outline how these defects should be dealt with.

Anyone planning on not accepting a coach with defects should plan on not having an rv.
__________________
2022 London Aire 4551 * 2022 GD Imagine 2800BH * 2021 RAM 3500 DRW * 2020 Wrangler
HAM: WD4LOW NHSO (Newmar Hoot, Sevierville Original)
Kindness Matters
redbaron73 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2021, 07:25 PM   #67
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1
Newmar Quality Call to Action

Question, is it only Newmar? We have a 2022 Tifin 5th wheel, and quality is an issue too? 3rd Tiffin product. It's not only Newmar. Consumers are getting stuck with lemons and have to deal with the headaches.
Dogwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2021, 07:32 PM   #68
Senior Member
 
redbaron73's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,452
Blog Entries: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
Question, is it only Newmar? We have a 2022 Tifin 5th wheel, and quality is an issue too? 3rd Tiffin product. It's not only Newmar. Consumers are getting stuck with lemons and have to deal with the headaches.
This Thread is only about Newmar.

Further, no one is discussing lemons. Newmar has always stood behind their products.

Raising consumer awareness of product quality issues for newly delivered Newmars, and making sure these issues are reported to Newmar for resolution is the only purpose.
__________________
2022 London Aire 4551 * 2022 GD Imagine 2800BH * 2021 RAM 3500 DRW * 2020 Wrangler
HAM: WD4LOW NHSO (Newmar Hoot, Sevierville Original)
Kindness Matters
redbaron73 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2021, 08:37 PM   #69
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 13
Absolutely spectacular post - thanks so much for the hard work on this and for caring enough about it to try and help fix it.

We are taking delivery of our 2022 New Aire sometime in the Spring (this will be our first ever coach) and will be very careful about all of this; we will do our part to help Newmar correct these issues. We are paying for FPU.

We do believe Newmar is a quality product, after several years of research. We will continue to believe that until they prove us wrong.

One question: it seems you or someone else indicated somewhere in the 5 pages of this post that you would get an inspector for dealer pick up. Would you hire one for FPU?

Thanks again for all of this. Tremendous help.

Tom & Lesley
HallT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2021, 09:02 PM   #70
Senior Member
 
redbaron73's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,452
Blog Entries: 4
I would hire one regardless of delivery.

You will have to work with Newmar to have your inspector gain access to the coach prior to your fpu. Since there is 8 weeks between end of production and FPU, there is plenty of time for this to occur.

This may be something that helps to raise Newmars awareness of quality controls.
__________________
2022 London Aire 4551 * 2022 GD Imagine 2800BH * 2021 RAM 3500 DRW * 2020 Wrangler
HAM: WD4LOW NHSO (Newmar Hoot, Sevierville Original)
Kindness Matters
redbaron73 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
newmar, quality



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Difference between a 2022 Accolade and 2022 Accolade XL randystu Entegra Owner's Forum 11 07-02-2021 05:43 AM
Newmar Mountain Aire - is this a quality coach, quality company? Doug427 Class A Motorhome Discussions 80 01-09-2020 06:21 PM
"Ron Call"...err ..I mean Roll Call! MonacoMama Monaco Owner's Forum 18 08-20-2007 04:14 PM

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.