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Old 06-18-2018, 03:56 PM   #1
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Battery Management in the New Aire

There have been many threads dealing with the issue of battery management in the New Aire. While I am not an expert in this area, I thought it would be helpful to share my views about this issue. Since I don't have complete schematic diagrams for the New Aire, my comments here reflect my best effort to reverse engineer the electrical systems in this coach as a basis to reflect on options to better manage the batteries in the coach. Much of this discussion will apply to other SilverLeaf coaches. The KA with dual inverters may be the exception.

The New Aire has two battery systems: eight AGM coach batteries and two chassis batteries. These two system are interconnected by a charge bridge solenoid. This solenoid is controlled by the TM102 SilverLeaf module which open and closes the relay under certain circumstances to link the two battery systems. The charge bridge solenoid can be opened and closed manually by using the "Battery Boost" switch in the cockpit. To the best of my knowledge there are no other connections between the coach and chassis electrical systems.

In those coaches equipped with solar panels and a solar controller the Newmar implementation of SilverLead does not recognize the presence of the solar controller to open and close the charge bridge solenoid. As a result even when full charge is being applied to the coach batteries by a solar controller, no connection is made to the chassis battery thus this battery system is not charged during solar charge operations.

In order to properly monitor and manage any battery system you need to be able to sample voltage and current going and coming from the battery. The standard New Aire electrical system does not have a battery monitor system associated with either the coach or chassis battery system. There is a shunt in the Xantrex inverter/charger that monitors voltage and current through this unit. This is the information displayed on the New Aire SilverLeaf panel. The panel also displays the current voltage associated with the chassis battery.

It is important to understand the SilverLeaf monitor is displaying the current passing in/out of the Xantrex charger/inverter, not the current flowing into or out of the coach battery. The only way to under to get information related to current flow into and out of the coach (or chassis) battery is through the use of a battery monitor system equipped with a shunt immediately attached to the battery.

The best way to understand all this is to look at all the information displayed by both the SilverLeaf system and a battery management system attached to the coach battery. Below you will see a series of screen shots taken within a few seconds of each other in my NA today. My NA has been in an outside storage lot for the last two weeks. The coach is equipped with 1 kW of solar power previously documented in other posts.

Here is the home page of the SilverLeaf display panel. The house battery and the chassis battery current voltage is 13.7. When I store my NA outside, without shore power, I keep the "Battery Boost" switch on closing the charge bridge solenoid. This allows the solar controller to manage the battery charge schedule for both the chassis and house battery. You will also notice the Inverter is on supplying 118V @ 2A to the inverter circuits. The refrigerator was running when this images was taken.



The second image below shows the "AC Power" page on the SilverLeaf display it repeats the same AC power information displayed on the home page.



The image below displays the "DC Power" page on the SilverLeaf monitor. Note this image depicts the house battery at 71F, 13.8 volts, passing 15 amps to the inverter. Those 15 amps of DC power are being used by the inverter to generate 2 amps of AC power at 118 volts. The key here is that those 15 amps of DC power is not the only load going or coming from the house battery (or solar panels if equipped). It is only the load going to the inverter.



The next image below shows the status of the solar charge controller. You can see the solar panels in this image are generating 444 watts. The solar controller is passing that energy to the coach electrical system at 13.89 volts and 31.2 amps. Notice that this current flow is much higher than the 15 amps shown above on the SilverLeaf panel going to the inverter. The difference between the current flows is related to the current flowing to other DC sources in the coach (including chassis battery) and the current flowing to coach batteries being charged in "Float".



The next image shows the output from the Victron BMS. This is the device that gives you definitive information about the state of the coach batteries. There is no other way to know your current coach battery SOC (state of charge) without a battery management system such as the Victron BMS. You can see the BMS has calculated that the coach batteries at at 100% of charge. Also note that the batteries are taking in 5.0 amps of current which is the "Float" charge going on to maintain the batteries at 100% until sunset.



So putting this all together, when these images were shot, the sun was supplying the coach with 31.2 amps of power. The coach batteries were using 5.0 amps for "Float maintenance", the inverter was using 15 amps for generating 118 volts @ 2 amps of AC power and the coach/chassis battery was consuming 11.2 amps to run DC sources and charge the chassis battery in float via the charge bridge relay.

I know this can be very confusing to sort out for a newbie, thus the post. The important thing to remember is that SilverLeaf is not giving you the full story with regard to current battery state. Do not rely on it for battery management.

The New Aire is a high tech, all electric coach. To be useful in all phases of operation (camping, storage and service) an owner needs the right tools to properly operate the coach. The New Aire as delivered (without the solar panel option) is missing two very important items: solar panels and a battery monitor system.
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Old 06-18-2018, 05:49 PM   #2
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Good write up turbo, just need a question asked, the New Aire does not use a B.I.M. for controlling the two battery banks charging while shore line or Gen is connected, its all controlled by the Silverleaf TM102 or this is only while systems are being charged by Solar?
If there are two charging systems can you use both or only one at a time to prevent over load of charging of batteries. Battery charging system in New Aire chapter #6.
Your pictures of Silverleaf screens are reading your Solar System charging batteries and it, Silverleaf, also will read the shore or Gen charging of batteries also when used.
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Old 06-18-2018, 05:57 PM   #3
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Good write up turbo, just need a question asked, the New Aire does not use a B.I.M. for controlling the two battery banks charging while shore line or Gen is connected, its all controlled by the Silverleaf TM102 or this is only while systems are being charged by Solar?
Correct. The SilverLeaf TM102 automatically controls the charge bridge solenoid. No BIM in the NA. This is the stock configuration.

Newmar's version of SilverLeaf has no idea there is a solar controller connected to the system. So while the TM102 opens the charge bridge solenoid (to charge the chassis battery) when the Xantrex charger/inverter is in charge float, it does nothing when the Xantrex charger is off line and the solar charge controller is servicing the house battery.

I understand other RV manufacturers include solar charge controller into the TM102/charge bridge solenoid, but Newmar has not authorized SilverLeaf to include it into the Newmar version of SilverLeaf.
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Old 06-18-2018, 06:32 PM   #4
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If Newmar does not allow the bridged TM 102 to charge chassis battery bank, is that why they show the B.I.M. in their Owners Guide for charging batteries?
Its a big question why they do not allow and will always have batteries charge by three ways Solar, shore or Gen?
If you were to open the leads to solenoid from TM 102 would you be charging all battery banks?
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Old 06-18-2018, 06:39 PM   #5
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If Newmar does not allow the bridged TM 102 to charge chassis battery bank, is that why they show the B.I.M. in their Owners Guide for charging batteries?
Its a big question why they do not allow and will always have batteries charge by three ways Solar, shore or Gen?
If you were to open the leads to solenoid from TM 102 would you be charging all battery banks?
TM102 will charge the chassis battery but only when on board charger hooked to shore power (or generator) is operating. A lightning bolt shows up on the SilverLeaf controller when TM102 opens the solenoid to the chassis battery. Best I can determine is that the Xantrex charger tells the TM102 via RV-C network that the charger is in float mode. It will not do it when only the solar charger is on line.
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:33 PM   #6
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When I store my NA outside, without shore power, I keep the "Battery Boost" switch on closing the charge bridge solenoid. This allows the solar controller to manage the battery charge schedule for both the chassis and house battery.

Isn’t the battery boost switch a momentary switch? How do you keep it on such that your solar panels will charge both sets of batteries?

For those of us without solar panels (other than the small factory installed panel for charging the chassis batteries), is there a battery monitoring system that we can install to show the full drain (or charge) of the house batteries? I assume that the one you mentioned is part of your solar panel system.
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:44 PM   #7
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Isn’t the battery boost switch a momentary switch? How do you keep it on such that your solar panels will charge both sets of batteries?

For those of us without solar panels (other than the small factory installed panel for charging the chassis batteries), is there a battery monitoring system that we can install to show the full drain (or charge) of the house batteries? I assume that the one you mentioned is part of your solar panel system.
Yes, battery boost is a momentary switch. When the coach is in storage I just wedge it in the on position so that both the chassis and coach batteries can be charged together from the solar controller. It is exactly the same thing the TM102 does during normal charger operation on shore power or generator.

The Victron BMS is a separate device from the solar controller. It can (and should) be installed in any coach with a large battery system with or without solar.

The Victron BMS is the small round device to the left in the image. Solar controller is on the right. Both the BMS and the solar controller use BlueTooth to connect with the Victron App on your smartphone for monitoring.



And here is the Victron BMS shunt on the wall of the battery compartment.

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Old 06-19-2018, 12:25 AM   #8
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Just a quick point of clarification. Victron makes a line of battery monitors they call BMV. That is the device depicted in this thread.

Victron also makes Battery Management Systems for their lithium batteries. Generically, these are called BMSes, and they pretty much do other stuff that's irrelevant to this thread.

Everywhere upthread that you see the acronym "BMS," you should substitute "BMV" if you're looking for a Victron product or "battery monitor with a shunt" if you want to buy someone else's product, e.g. Magnum BMK.
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Old 06-19-2018, 08:06 AM   #9
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A few more points to make this discussion relevant to recent threads about outside storage of the NA. Since delivery of my NA last October the coach has been stored inside a hangar plugged into 50 amp shore power with the batteries (coach and chassis) continuosly under charge.

As the temperatures in the low desert of California started to approach 120F I decided to move the coach to an outside storage facility on the cool coast of central California. It is now in a typical RV storage facility without shore power.



The coach has been store outside for without shore power for two weeks. All security system are operating and the Samsung refrigerator is operating via the inverter. So far the 1kW of solar cells have been able to service the demands of the batteries. This includes a few days that remained cloudy with typical June marine level we see in this area. I typically would not leave the inverter/refrigerator running but I wanted to get a sense of energy demands over time with variable cloud cover. This is June with peak overhead sun so this is as good as it gets for a flat PV system.

Here is the history screen from the solar controller. This screen shows daily output and the amount of time the controller spends bulk, absorption and float. Also you can see that over a 24 hour cycle the batteries never dropped below 12.52 volts overnight.

In a fully powered down state my coach would require something less than 100 amps over a 24 hour period to service the security systems and parasitic loss in the electrical system. It is pretty clear that the coach should keep all systems alive and batteries charged in December as well.

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Old 06-19-2018, 08:45 AM   #10
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turbopilot,

Do you have the VE.smart compatible MPPT150/85-TR?

Below are the two models...the one ending in 210 is not VE.smart compatible...the 211 is VE.smart compatible.

The reason I ask...I see the screenshots of your BMV...it appears you aren’t using the second channel to monitor chassis battery voltage. You can add a temp sensor accessory to the BMV and monitor the house bank temperature. If your SmartSolar Charge Controller is VE.smart capable...it can receive the BMV voltage and temperature to better control the solar charge profile.

The bi-directional relay with solar is a management issue. My simple non-silver leaf system will combine...it only looks at battery voltages with a defeat feature if the ignition and generator are both on together...to prevent two charging sources from linking. With FLA batteries...I do not want them combined when Solar+Alternator are running. Too much charge current for my FLA batteries. I am thinking of adding a couple of diodes and linking the solar controller relay to the ignition input on the bi-directional relay. To prevent alternator and solar from combining...

No sure that I would want to prop my boost switch ON for extended periods though. That would defeat all other logic...some which acts to protect the two banks from harming one another.





SmartSolar MPPT 150/85 Tr

Non compatible...SCC010085210
Compatible...SCC115085211
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Old 06-19-2018, 09:26 AM   #11
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PV output

[QUOTE=turbopilot;4248746]A few more points to make this discussion relevant to recent threads about outside storage of the NA. Since delivery of my NA last October the coach has been stored inside a hangar plugged into 50 amp shore power with the batteries (coach and chassis) continuosly under charge. ----- In a fully powered down state my coach would require something less than 100 amps over a 24 hour period to service the security systems and parasitic loss in the electrical system. It is pretty clear that the coach should keep all systems alive and batteries charged in December as well.


Turbo, out of curiosity have you ever measured how much, if any, power you are getting out of your solar system when the coach was parked in your hanger?
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:06 AM   #12
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turbopilot,

Do you have the VE.smart compatible MPPT150/85-TR?

Below are the two models...the one ending in 210 is not VE.smart compatible...the 211 is VE.smart compatible.

The reason I ask...I see the screenshots of your BMV...it appears you aren’t using the second channel to monitor chassis battery voltage. You can add a temp sensor accessory to the BMV and monitor the house bank temperature. If your SmartSolar Charge Controller is VE.smart capable...it can receive the BMV voltage and temperature to better control the solar charge profile.

The bi-directional relay with solar is a management issue. My simple non-silver leaf system will combine...it only looks at battery voltages with a defeat feature if the ignition and generator are both on together...to prevent two charging sources from linking. With FLA batteries...I do not want them combined when Solar+Alternator are running. Too much charge current for my FLA batteries. I am thinking of adding a couple of diodes and linking the solar controller relay to the ignition input on the bi-directional relay. To prevent alternator and solar from combining...

No sure that I would want to prop my boost switch ON for extended periods though. That would defeat all other logic...some which acts to protect the two banks from harming one another.

SmartSolar MPPT 150/85 Tr

Non compatible...SCC010085210
Compatible...SCC115085211
Don't know. Did not hook up the chassis battery since chassis battery voltage is displayed on SilverLeaf and updated on MyRozie.

As to the use of the Battery Boost switch I have yet to understand what logic the TM102 uses to turn on the solenoid. It seems random except the solenoid is not on during engine starts. I leave the Battery Boost switch on only during storage so that the chassis battery is charged when the house battery is charged. If not done the chassis battery will deplete very quickly.

With a good solar controller what harm good be done to the chassis battery by leaving the Battery Boost switch on more severe than total depletion which would be the outcome of not leaving the switch on during storage?

With my setup the chassis battery and the house batteries go through the same charge process daily of ie bulk, absorption and float.
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:07 AM   #13
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Turbo, out of curiosity have you ever measured how much, if any, power you are getting out of your solar system when the coach was parked in your hanger?
Zero.
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Old 06-19-2018, 04:08 PM   #14
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Don't know. Did not hook up the chassis battery since chassis battery voltage is displayed on SilverLeaf and updated on MyRozie.

As to the use of the Battery Boost switch I have yet to understand what logic the TM102 uses to turn on the solenoid. It seems random except the solenoid is not on during engine starts. I leave the Battery Boost switch on only during storage so that the chassis battery is charged when the house battery is charged. If not done the chassis battery will deplete very quickly.

With a good solar controller what harm good be done to the chassis battery by leaving the Battery Boost switch on more severe than total depletion which would be the outcome of not leaving the switch on during storage?

With my setup the chassis battery and the house batteries go through the same charge process daily of ie bulk, absorption and float.
A shorted cell in one chassis battery might keep you in bulk until nightfall and then drain your chassis AND house batteries...

I catch my solenoid in action quite by chance. Our simple tank monitor has a battery page which displays the house and chassis voltages one above the other. If I don’t have the motor going...and see something above 12.6 on the chassis...it is coming from the house or th 10w panel on the roof ()

I usually catch it during Absorb phase...I’ll look up and both will read 14.4v...then I know the 10w panel isn’t matching both banks perfectly...has to be the solenoid has joined them.

I know better than to “think”...cause I usually have a 50/50 chance of getting it right...but I would imagine the silver leaf would use a similar control logic to the ones commonly in use for Birds, BIMs or whatever they call them.

A test is to...

Have the solar charger in bulk or absorb with battery voltage above 13.3v
Engine OFF
Turn on Headlights...

Observe for up to ten minutes to see if relay closes...

The test give the monitor a chance to see one bank being charged...as the other is discharged...if the logic is capable of reading that...it should close the relay to allow both sources to connect. I would monitor the relay or the chassis battery voltage. The lightening bolt symbol may have other caveats...
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