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Old 12-26-2021, 05:06 PM   #29
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Excellent read! Thanks for taking the time to post.
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Old 12-26-2021, 09:51 PM   #30
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Posts: 291
Great Review and Technical Resource Mike!

Thanks! I learned considerably from your review about our 2021 3927.
I have found and corrected numerous items as well. Most by me, some under warranty at Nappanee last month.

I will definitely be adding the dump valve and going to lithium when my house FLA's bite the dust.

I am interested in your wiring notes and other data on the coach as delivered. And will be looking for your media on the lithium conversion.

A couple of the more serious items I found and corrected on mine:

NOTE EVERYONE WITH A 2021 OR LATER FRED CANYON STAR SHOULD CHECK FOR THIS UNDER YOUR FLOOR HATCH. SEE PIX BELOW. LAST ONE IS AFTER WIRE REPAIR, REROUTE, AND ADDED HEAT SHEILDING
1. A couple of wire bundles (in the split loom) were laying ON (e.g. cooking on) the rear part of the exhaust manifold. One was the wire group for generator control. Problems grew gradually over months but finally resulted in the generator would not run while driving, coupled with strange random flashes of the generator STOP light on the dash, usually when I hit a bump. Long story short: After considerable attempts at locating the obivious wire problem thru inspection and measurement with a DVM and oscilloscope, I finally decided to open up the floor hatch (secured by four screws) and found the melted mess of the generator control wires, and one burned up CAT5 cable, in contact with the cast iron manifold. (That CAT5 cable only seems to provide 5V power to the passenger side USB utility port.) There were other bundles close to the manifold and turbo and not secured. I spliced out the burned sections, rerouted some bundles, and added heat shielding and a couple of metal loops to hold it up and protect it. Everything is now working.

2. The 12V fuse panel under the dash at the drivers side left foot has totally incorrect labeling, at least on my unit. They just stuck on the label from the Ford chassis. The panel layout doesn't match the diagram! I found a drawing on Newgle that seems to have the correct diagram and fuse function list. (See link below) I am going to copy, size, print, and laminate the label from it soon.


Fuse drawing for 2021 CS FRED
Note I did find a couple of differences. On my coach,
A) there is no fuse in the "Fog Light" slot and it is not wired. The fog lights come on when 1) The headlights are on, and on bright AND 2) The dash fog light switch is on. The fog lights must be fused elsewhere.
B) There is no fuse in the "Clearance Lights" slot and it is not wired. Clearance lights come on whenever the park lights are on. They must be on another circuit or are simply common with the park lights.
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Old 12-26-2021, 10:13 PM   #31
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Mike:
Have you figured out what the transmission controller "mode" switch does when the light is on? I know it changes the shift points, but when should it be turned on and when off.

From early research I thought it was a like "tow/haul" and needed to be on when towing, driving in the mountains, or both. I actually had it on most of the time our first 5000 miles as we tow an F150 and we drove in TN, North GA, NC, and WV for several camping trips.

Then I found this document on the Freightliner website that said (on page 59) when the MODE light is ON, the transmission is in Economy Mode, which I assume should NOT be on when towing a vehicle or driving with heavy load. (My panel is NOT labeled "ECONOMY" like the pix in that document). According to that document, I have been using MODE 180 degrees wrong.
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Old 12-26-2021, 10:19 PM   #32
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One more question Mike:

Under the dash at the drivers side, there are these three ganged relays hanging in space. (see pix). Two of them are labeled on mine but the other label is missing. I noticed you have a pix on your website of them but not close enough to read the labels.

The one with the missing label is always warm when parked so I assume its coil is energized. What should it be labeled? Just curious.
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Old 12-27-2021, 06:56 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evofxdwg View Post
Thanks! I learned considerably from your review about our 2021 3927.
I have found and corrected numerous items as well. Most by me, some under warranty at Nappanee last month.

I will definitely be adding the dump valve and going to lithium when my house FLA's bite the dust.

I am interested in your wiring notes and other data on the coach as delivered. And will be looking for your media on the lithium conversion.

A couple of the more serious items I found and corrected on mine:

NOTE EVERYONE WITH A 2021 OR LATER FRED CANYON STAR SHOULD CHECK FOR THIS UNDER YOUR FLOOR HATCH. SEE PIX BELOW. LAST ONE IS AFTER WIRE REPAIR, REROUTE, AND ADDED HEAT SHEILDING
1. A couple of wire bundles (in the split loom) were laying ON (e.g. cooking on) the rear part of the exhaust manifold. One was the wire group for generator control. Problems grew gradually over months but finally resulted in the generator would not run while driving, coupled with strange random flashes of the generator STOP light on the dash, usually when I hit a bump. Long story short: After considerable attempts at locating the obivious wire problem thru inspection and measurement with a DVM and oscilloscope, I finally decided to open up the floor hatch (secured by four screws) and found the melted mess of the generator control wires, and one burned up CAT5 cable, in contact with the cast iron manifold. (That CAT5 cable only seems to provide 5V power to the passenger side USB utility port.) There were other bundles close to the manifold and turbo and not secured. I spliced out the burned sections, rerouted some bundles, and added heat shielding and a couple of metal loops to hold it up and protect it. Everything is now working.

2. The 12V fuse panel under the dash at the drivers side left foot has totally incorrect labeling, at least on my unit. They just stuck on the label from the Ford chassis. The panel layout doesn't match the diagram! I found a drawing on Newgle that seems to have the correct diagram and fuse function list. (See link below) I am going to copy, size, print, and laminate the label from it soon.


Fuse drawing for 2021 CS FRED
Note I did find a couple of differences. On my coach,
A) there is no fuse in the "Fog Light" slot and it is not wired. The fog lights come on when 1) The headlights are on, and on bright AND 2) The dash fog light switch is on. The fog lights must be fused elsewhere.
B) There is no fuse in the "Clearance Lights" slot and it is not wired. Clearance lights come on whenever the park lights are on. They must be on another circuit or are simply common with the park lights.
Many Thanks for the replies guys - Ok, so we know it's not just my coach with the wiring errors. With the help of other owners we can hope to iron out the few known problems.What are these so-called engineers doing, did no one in the nearly two years of designing this coach even look at the frame one time. The errors are un-excusable. Even the guy who strings the wire from one point to the other should have picked up these errors.

Does your coach have this ear piercing beeper if you turn the lights on with the key off- I called everyone and neither Freightliner or Newmar has any plans to change it. With that said, I just spent 2 hours reducing the beeper volume 80%. Regretfully the beeper is located inside the dash cluster so it's unreachable. But I found a way to shut it up, I'll post some images!

I'll check my fuse panel under the steering to see if that's a problem and I'll post an image of the 3 breakers.

Anyhow glad your getting things worked out, hopefully this Canyon Star thread can help owners to prevent being stuck on the road. It's a good coach it's just gonna take some "Owner R&D" to get her right.

Regards - Mike
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Old 12-27-2021, 07:07 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evofxdwg View Post
Mike:
Have you figured out what the transmission controller "mode" switch does when the light is on? I know it changes the shift points, but when should it be turned on and when off.

From early research I thought it was a like "tow/haul" and needed to be on when towing, driving in the mountains, or both. I actually had it on most of the time our first 5000 miles as we tow an F150 and we drove in TN, North GA, NC, and WV for several camping trips.

Then I found this document on the Freightliner website that said (on page 59) when the MODE light is ON, the transmission is in Economy Mode, which I assume should NOT be on when towing a vehicle or driving with heavy load. (My panel is NOT labeled "ECONOMY" like the pix in that document). According to that document, I have been using MODE 180 degrees wrong.
George, thanks for the reply - Regretfully, I can't answer your question on the mode shifter, I'm embarrassed to say but I never tried it yet. On my last coach with a MH2500, when I kicked in the mode button, it actually started off in 2nd gear and shifted way too quick in an effort to keep the rpm down to save fuel. I hate to say it but this thinking is backwards.

If it were a semi where you were loaded and unloaded it would make sense but since our coaches are always loaded it makes "Zero" sense.

Making matters worse - Cummins and Allison jointly designed a mode called "Fuel Sense" it virtually bogs the engine all the time and over-shifts to where the engine can't get the coach going. I had it disabled on my Renegade at Allison and my 0-60 time went from 28 second to only 15-17 seconds to reach 60 mph.

I'll give it a try next time out and get back to you!


Regards - Mike
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Old 12-27-2021, 07:11 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evofxdwg View Post
One more question Mike:

Under the dash at the drivers side, there are these three ganged relays hanging in space. (see pix). Two of them are labeled on mine but the other label is missing. I noticed you have a pix on your website of them but not close enough to read the labels.

The one with the missing label is always warm when parked so I assume its coil is energized. What should it be labeled? Just curious.

I'll check it tomorrow for sure and let you know. Did you find your other "three" Freightliner fuse panels under the hood yet, I had to use a Dremel tool to cut off the bracket to get the cover pointed towards the front, don't know what they were thinkin!


Regards - Mike
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Old 12-27-2021, 07:21 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmark929 View Post
I made a number of improvements to my 2016 3921 gas. Toy hauler. See below

I added Banks accessories, intake and exhaust to increase power, five star tuning and liquid spring suspension to improve and drive and ride

Also the ramp surface is terrible and slick. Many times my tires have slipped. I added a non-slip surface used on aircraft carriers in wet conditions. The description is at the end. The black stripes allow me to drive up and into the wheel chock easily

Ramp non skid coating

TECHNICAL DATA- NP210
SLIP RESISTANT (SKIDPROOFER) EPOXY COATING

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
NP210 is a two component plus aggregate colored high solids epoxy coating that provides a chemical resistant non-slip surface that can stand up to heavy industrial traffic. This product is available in both a regular and super non-slip texture.
RECOMMENDED FOR:
Recommended for coating of concrete, wood or steel for skidproofing ramps, stairs, loading docks, catwalks or other hazardous areas indoor or outdoors.

SOLIDS BY WEIGHT:
96% (+/- 2%) (liquids mixed without aggregate)
SOLIDS BY VOLUME
88% (+/- 2%) (liquids mixed without aggregate)
VOLATILE ORGANIC CONTENT:
Less than 111 g/l
STANDARD COLORS:
Light gray, medium gray, and tile red
RECOMMENDED FILM THICKNESS:
14-18 mils per coat wet thickness
COVERAGE PER GALLON:
89-114 square feet depending on porosity and type of substrate. A standard 2.7 gallon kit will yield 240-308 square feet.
PACKAGING INFORMATION
2.7 gallon kit= 1 gallon part A (10.25#), 1 gallon part B (10.3#) and 20 pounds of a specially blended aggregate.
MIX RATIO:
The mix ratio is 1:1 by volume plus 20# mixed aggregate (volumes approximate)
SHELF LIFE:
1 year in unopened containers
COMPRESSIVE STRENGTH:
8,820 psi @ ASTM D695
TENSILE STRENGTH:
6,230 psi @ ASTM D638
ADHESION:
375 psi @ elcometer (concrete failure, no delamination)
ULTIMATE ELONGATION:
6.4%
FINISH CHARACTERISTICS:
textured
HARDNESS:
Pencil (3H)
GARDNER VARIABLE IMPACTOR:
100 inch pounds direct – passed
ABRASION RESISTANCE:
Taber abraser CS-17 calibrase wheel with 1000 gram total load and 500 cycles= 41 mg loss (neat)
VISCOSITY:
Mixed = 5000-7000 cps with aggregate (typical)
DOT CLASSIFICATIONS:
Part A&B FLAMMABLE LIQUID N.O.S., 3, UN1993, PGIII
Part C “not regulated”
HEAT DEFLECTION TEMP:
59 degrees C, ASTM D648
CURE SCHEDULE: (70°F)
pot life – (1 1/2 gallon volume) ……...……....…………...1-1 1/2 hours
tack free (dry to touch) ……………...…………………..........4-7 hours
recoat or topcoat.....…………….….…............................. ........ 5-8 hours
light foot traffic...…………………...……………...……....10-12 hours
full cure (heavy traffic)... ………...……..……………...….......3-7 days
APPLICATION TEMPERATURE:
60-90 degrees F
CHEMICAL RESISTANCE:
REAGENT RATING
xylene A
methanol A
ethyl alcohol A
skydrol B
10% sodium hydroxide E
50% sodium hydroxide E
10% sulfuric acid B
70% sulfuric acid A
10% HC1 (aq) B
5% acetic acid A
Rating key: A - not recommended, B - 2 hour term splash spill, C - 8 hour term splash spill, D - 72 hour immersion, E - long term immersion. NOTE: extensive chemical resistance information is available through your sales representative.
PRIMER:
Optional
TOPCOAT:
None required. For improved chemical resistance or UV stability, NP321 or NP324 can be used as a topcoat.
LIMITATIONS:
*Color stability may be affected by environmental conditions such as high humidity, low temperature, chemical exposure or exposure to lighting such as sodium vapor lights.
*Colors may vary from batch to batch. Therefore, use only product from the same batch for an entire job.
*This product is not UV color stable. For improved UV stability, a suitable urethane can be used.
*When applying material, roll the product in an consistant manner until the desired texture is obtained.
*Data based on neat resin without aggregate.
*Mixtures of chemicals and applications with exposures to chemicals at elevated temperatures should be thoroughly evaluated before applying.
*Substrate temperature must be 5°F above dew point.
*All new concrete must be cured for at least 30 days prior to application.
*See reverse side for application instructions.
*Physical properties are typical values and not specifications.
*See reverse side for limitations of our liability and warranty.




MIXING AND APPLICATION INSTRUCTIONS (NP210)
1) PRODUCT STORAGE: Store product in an area so as to bring the material to normal room temperature before using. Continuous storage should be between 60 and 90 degrees F. Low temperatures or great temperature fluctuations may cause product crystallization.

2) SURFACE PREPARATION: The most suitable surface preparation would be a fine brush blast (shot blast) to remove all laitance and provide a suitable profile. All dirt, foreign contaminants, oil and laitance must be removed to assure a trouble free bond to the substrate. A test should be made to determine that the concrete is dry; this can be done by placing a 4’X4’ plastic sheet on the substrate and taping down the edges. If after 24 hours, the substrate is still dry below the plastic sheet, then the substrate is dry enough to start coating. The plastic sheet testing is also a good method to determine if any hydrostatic pressure problems exist that may later cause disbonding.

3) PRODUCT MIXING: This product has a mix ratio of 10.25# part A to 10.3# part B and 20# mixed aggregate. Standard packages are in pre-measured kits and should be mixed as supplied in the kit. We highly recommend that the kits not be broken down unless suitable weighing equipment is available. After the two liquid parts are combined, add in the provided aggregate and mix well with slow speed mixing equipment such as a jiffy mixer until the material is thoroughly mixed and streak free. After mixing, transfer the mixed material to another pail (the transfer pail) and again remix. The material in the transfer pail is now ready to be applied on the primed substrate. Improper mixing may result in product failure.

4) PRIMING: (optional) Any suitable primer can be used before applying this product, however, it is not required. See the front side of this technical data for primer information.

5) PRODUCT APPLICATION: The mixed material should be applied by a roller or brush at the recommended thickness. Maintain temperatures and relative humidity within the recommended ranges during the application and curing process. It is best to try and roll the product in the same direction for a more uniform appearance.

6) RECOAT OR TOPCOATING: Recoats or topcoats of this product are normally unnecessary. However, if you opt to recoat or topcoat this product, you must first be sure that the coating has tacked off. Always remember that colder temperatures will require more cure time for the product before recoating or topcoating can commence. Before recoating or topcoating, check the coating to insure no epoxy blushes were developed (a whitish, greasy film or deglossing). If a blush is present, it must be removed prior to topcoating or recoating. A standard type detergent cleaner can be used to remove any blush. Many epoxy and urethane coatings are suitable for use as topcoats as well as multiple coats of this product.

7) CLEANUP: Use xylol

8) FLOOR CLEANING: Caution! Some cleaners may affect the color of the floor installed. Test each cleaner in a small area, utilizing your cleaning technique. If no ill effects are noted, you can continue to clean with the product and process tested.

9) RESTRICTIONS: Restrict the use of the floor to light traffic and non-harsh chemicals until the coating is fully cured (see technical data under full cure). It is best to let the floor remain dry for the full cure cycle. Dependent on actual complete system application, surface may be slippery, especially when wet or contaminated; keep surface clean and dry.

NOTICE TO BUYER: DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTIES AND
LIMITATIONS ON OUR LIABILITY
We warrant that our products are manufactured to strict quality assurance specifications and that the information supplied by us is accurate to the best of our knowledge. Such information supplied about our products is not a representation or a warranty. It is supplied on the condition that you shall make your own tests to determine the suitability of our product for your particular purpose. Any use or application other than recommended herein is the sole responsibility of the user. Listed physical properties are typical and should not be construed as specifications. NO WARRANTY IS MADE, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, REGARDING SUCH OTHER INFORMATION, THE DATA ON WHICH IT IS BASED, OR THE RESULTS YOU WILL OBTAIN FROM ITS USE. N0 WARRANTY IS MADE, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, THAT OUR PRODUCT SHALL BE MERCHANTABLE OR THAT OUR PRODUCT SHALL BE FIT FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE. NO WARRANTY IS MADE THAT THE USE OF SUCH INFORMATION OR OUR PRODUCT WILL NOT INFRINGE UPON ANY PATENT. We shall have no liability for incidental or consequential damages, direct or indirect. Our liability is limited to the net selling price of our product or the replacement of our product, at our option. Acceptance of delivery of our product means that you have accepted the terms of this warranty whether or not purchase orders or other documents state terms that vary from this warranty. No representative is authorized to make any representation or warranty or assume any other liability on our behalf with any sale of our products. Our products contain chemicals that may CAUSE SERIOUS PHYSICAL INJURY. BEFORE USING,READ THE MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET AND FOLLOW ALL PRECAUTIONS TO PREVENT BODILY HARM.
COPYRIGHT9/1/12 NATIONAL POLYMERS INC.

Thanks for the reply - got a couple of nice looking Indians sitting in the garage there. Quick question on the non-slip surface coating, did you ramp have a sand finish like mine when you got it. I have excellent traction but the sand finish is impossible to keep clean. By accident one day the tire peeled out for a second and the rubber is in the ramp for ever. What kind of finish do you have it looks smoother than mine?

By the way, you asked for the link to my Leisure Wonder review here it is:

Leisure Wonder In-Depth Review - Mike Mas

http://www.rotory.com/transit/leisure/


Regards - Mike
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Old 12-27-2021, 07:31 PM   #37
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Someone asked where I mounted my TireMinder repeater, here's an image, I just tapped into the power to the compartment light since I always leave the switch on so I can turn on any light without going in the coach.

The large switch on the lamp is my Aux 2nd Air Bag Dump switch, I located right by the rear axle so I witness the air bags and see the tire position in the well to make sure its inflated.

Enjoy - Mike
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Old 12-27-2021, 09:54 PM   #38
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Wiring: Last month I asked the techs at the Newmar service center if I can get some wiring diagrams. They gave the standard answer: “there aren’t any”. I don’t believe it. There is no way a person can connect all those ends on multiple floor plans, years, and chassis without at least a wire/connection list. I would settle for that. I did note that most under dash wires have some type of unique looking number label, possibly those were Freightliner wires, not sure. There are a few useful drawings on Newgle. Mostly fuse panels. But the drawings that are there don’t seem to have a number identification or control system implemented, which is disturbing for an engineer who worked in the defense industry! I don’t see how they have configuration control. Every time I crawl around/under mine I find suspicious stuff. Fortunately I have found only a couple of bad crimps though. I wonder about the several unconnected and/or unterminated wire ends I have seen. Are they all for other models/options or am I destined to find something that doesn’t work in the future?

Headlight Beeper: Yes, mine has the very loud and annoying warning beeper for “lights on” when ignition is off. Im interested how to lower the volume and where the actual beeper device is.

Ramp Coating: My 2021 has a coarse grainy non-slip coating as delivered. I haven’t had a problem with our mini golf cart or my Harley slipping on it while loading. That being said, I did fall flat on my face on the ramp one morning after walking in dewey grass wearing running shoes. Be careful when wet!

Tire Minder Repeater (see PIX): I mounted mine in the bathroom power cabinet and wired it up to a spare fuse hole where I installed a 2A fuse. It is powered 24/7. I have not screwed it down yet as I wanted to experiment with different positions & orientations inside the cabinet. I have recently had incidences of lost connection with one of the rear tire sensors which seemed to get better after I moved it a few inches and changed the orientation.


Some Other issues I have noticed:

Have you noticed the “LOW VOLTAGE” message on the dash at nearly every startup (and also frequent low voltage light on the leveling system after startup)? I thought I had a problem until I read on IRV2 that on late model cummins engines it is normal, and due to the high current intake heater that turns on before startup and drags the starting battery voltage down. Apparently, people have questioned Freightliner about it and they have no plans to change the software to lower the “low voltage” threshold for a time after startup.

My hood latch control is extremely difficult to pull. Seems like it is getting worse with time. Also the left side hood latch doesn’t release every time, and seems to sometimes require even more pulling at the latch control before it releases. I haven’t had time to troubleshoot it as it only recently became a problem.

Condensation drip on passenger side from the chassis A/C vent hose on that side, which is visibly hanging low under the dash. (We live in hot/humid GA). A friend I met last month has researched and found some insulated duct hose and also found that there is room under the dash and access to move that hose by removing the drawer.
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Old 12-28-2021, 04:57 AM   #39
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I saw the wonder. Great review but I do love my unity Murphy bed. Ramp. Had slight grit but otherwise very smooth. When I redid the surface I did add larger git as well
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Old 12-28-2021, 09:38 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmark929 View Post
I saw the wonder. Great review but I do love my unity Murphy bed. Ramp. Had slight grit but otherwise very smooth. When I redid the surface I did add larger git as well
Thanks for the reply - the main feature for me was "Storage" the large Leisure Wonder garage trunk was able to hold my entire lithium upgrade two electric bikes, chairs, etc. it's a great design. In Fact, storage and not having to deal with towing was the main reasons I was attracted to the Canyon Star.

Thanks - Mike
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Old 12-28-2021, 10:05 AM   #41
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For those interested in a Chassis battery cutoff Or Trickle Charger

Here's a tip to make it easy. Since the Canyon Star battery is totally "Un Reachable" since Freightliner in error located them above the house batteries, all the half dozen positive wires hidden from view. An easy method to add a cut-off switch to disconnect the "Negative" power lead. There is only two wires and easy to access. Make sure you order the correct cutoff switch since there is high amperage going thru the cables. The cut-off also allows you to reset the transmission without pulling fuses.

Another mod so I don't have to look at the Low Voltage display for any length of time, is I installed a trickle charger which fires up any time there is AC power. This keeps the start battery at 13+ volts with a good head charge and ready to turn the engine over. I was getting mixed charging with the idolator/Charger under the hood so now it's only function is the Boost feature. Another advantage is I can unplug the coach and still power the trickle charger.

Certainly the low voltage read out when starting the CS and other coaches is a goofy error from Freightliner. They should have added a delay feature because any battery will register low when starting. This is especially true during cold weather when batteries are weaker. Compounding the problem is the air intake heater will come on which draws tons of power. The final straw is the starter motor itself. When 2 or 3 of these come into play, the voltage can go down to 10+ volts after starting resulting in the low voltage readout.

Thanks Mike
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Old 01-05-2022, 01:06 PM   #42
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I have post this thread in the NEW COACH THREAD and the bigger one IMPORTANT STUFF FOR NEWMAR OWNERS.
Have a great day and be safe in your travels.
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