Decision Quandry

[NWLanding]

I think I need to apologize for the length of this thread before I start but I wanted to frame the question in as clear a manner as I could.

We're in the education phase of a Newmar DP purchase that will occur in 3-4 years. As much as we'd like to buy sooner, it ain't gonna happen.

Our thinking has been greatly informed by the vast knowledge and experience that exists on this forum. Our gratitude abounds.

Three to four years is a way off, but our current thinking has evolved (as it will continue to do) to the point that we know we want a Newmar DP, and we believe the 2014 4373 - Dutch Star or Ventana captures the important elements we want in a floor plan. We'll likely pursue a parallel purchase track which considers available used (in private ownership) and submitting a spec with a request for quotes to a number of top dealers for a new rig..So 2014 - 2017 models would likely be the range for used models that we'd consider. For now, we're focused on amassing information from dealer web sites, Newmar web resources, YouTube videos, NADA, RV Consumer Group and forums. Of course the analyst and dba in me can't avoid creating matrices and data, but I won't bore you with that today.

Our decision will be based, in part, on the fact that we want to purchase our third RV first and that we want the largest Newmar our budget can afford. Which based on current thinking would be a Dutch Star or Ventana. We will be full timers, no sticks and bricks, and following seasons and experiences around north America for as long as our health and will allows.

So with the above context and sideboards, here's where we'd appreciate guidance. I'm trying identify significant differences between the Ventana and Dutch Star. By significant I mean other than cosmetic features which could be easily altered in the future, in other words the chassis and infrastructure.

Here is what I've come up with:

• 50 HP difference on a Cummins ISL powerhouse

Chassis:

• 54,600 (DS) vs 54,000 GVWR (Ventana)

• Front ZF independent front axle, 17,000 lbs capacity (DS) vs Front Detroit I-Beam, wide track, 14,700 lbs capacity (Ventana)

• 150 gal (DS) vs 100 gal fuel tank (Ventana)

• Bigger Tires: Michelin XZA1 315/80R (DS) vs XRV 305/70R (Ventana)

• 9,500 NCC (DS) 10,500 NCC (Ventana

• Side radiator (DS) vs rear radiator (Ventana)

Standard/Options:

• MCD windows Shades standard on Dutch Star, are only standard in the cockpit on Ventana, other windows optional

• There is (I think) conflicting information between the Ventana brochure and the Newmar web site on hydronic heat, I think it's standard on the 43 foot Ventana models but I'm not sure if it's diesel or gas.

The biggest concern I have is the independent front suspension vs the I-beam. Under what circumstances would this be really noticeable? Would upgrading the shocks help mitigate this difference? Am I overly concerned about this?

The rear vs side radiator is another concern. But not sure if I'm overemphasizing this in terms or cooling abilities and limiting any minor owner maintenance.

This post is getting way too long so I'll end it here for now. Thanks in advance for reading and responding.

[Mr_D]

Well, we're on our second DSDP and almost bought our third earlier this year. Personally I don't think we'd ever buy lower nor higher than a DSDP. It has what we need/want at a good price for the quality.

If you ever have to have or do work on your engine you'll understand why the side radiator is preferred by most of us! I can change an engine belt in less than 10 min. and that includes finding the tools. On a rear radiator it'll take longer than that to open the interior hatch and even then it'll be a struggle to get to.

[NWLanding]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

Personally I don't think we'd ever buy lower nor higher than a DSDP. It has what we need/want at a good price for the quality.

If you ever have to have or do work on your engine you'll understand why the side radiator is preferred by most of us!

Thanks Mr D. I think you're telling me what I knew in my gut, but was hoping otherwise!

Thanks for your input.

[Mr_D]

Been RV'ing since 1957, my parents owned (among others) an Airstream Excella 500 (Wally Byam #8008) and a Foretravel so I'm used to good quality stuff.
We used to belong to a private RV club. Had about 30 rigs, but only 12 motorhomes, one was my parents Foretravel, one a Prevost and of the rest 6 were Newmars so we knew the brand/quality pretty well.
We can well afford what we want now, up to a King Aire (and paying cash), but we've decided that the Dutch Star gives us all we want/need.

[GaryKD]

Hi NWLanding,
There are three things that determine how long you will love your coach.
1. floor plan
2. will the coach carry all your stuff and your family (CCC or NCC)
3. will the coach tow the vehicle you want to tow (GCWR-GVWR and hitch rating)

After the above mentioned items are met, one can make the decision as easy or as difficult as one desires. For me, the IFS is much to do about nothing. With Comfort Drive everything changes. I'm at a time in life where I pay people to do the work I used to do. The belts on my rear radiator KSDP were changed in a hour by 2 certified Cummins techs.

You'll spend much more time living in the coach than driving it (and me with an 2005 and 91K miles on the odometer). Consider focusing on the livability of the coach based on how you will use it.

Considering a coach with a tag axle is a very good choice. The extra carrying capacity of the tag axle will be of great benefit to you.

["007"]

I will asume you have already read the HOOT's links in QT's # 3 and would advise follow the HOOT's roost meeting which I'm sure will have more info for your use.
5 years is a long time in the RV industry and things do change the only thing I have seen change since 98 and my first Newmar has been a positive position for highline coach owners with the way Newmar now works one on one with them in developing the coach of their desires.
These coach's do cost and may cost more in later years.

[NWLanding]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

Been RV'ing since 1957, my parents owned (among others) an Airstream Excella 500 (Wally Byam #8008) and a Foretravel so I'm used to good quality stuff.

We can well afford what we want now, up to a King Aire (and paying cash), but we've decided that the Dutch Star gives us all we want/need.

You've got an impressive set credentials established through your family and personal experience. Something that's no lost me.

I wish proximity (we're 2 hrs north of you) would allow your knowledge and experience to rub off!

Thanks for your insight.

[NWLanding]

Originally Posted by GaryKD

Hi NWLanding,
There are three things that determine how long you will love your coach.
1. floor plan
2. will the coach carry all your stuff and your family (CCC or NCC)
3. will the coach tow the vehicle you want to tow (GCWR-GVWR and hitch rating)

Consider focusing on the livability of the coach based on how you will use it.

Considering a coach with a tag axle is a very good choice. The extra carrying capacity of the tag axle will be of great benefit to you.

Thanks Gary, your three items are what got us to the point of identifying the 4373 as a icon of what we want in a coach. The DS 4373 is at the upper end of our projected budget, so contrasting and comparing the DS and Ventana 4373 is a worthy exercise. Our first choice would be a DS. But at a price differential of $40-50,000 dollars it seems worth evaluating a Ventana, or buying used. However after reading so many interesting accounts of folks taking delivery at Nappanee, we're really intrigued with that approach.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about IFS. It was really helpful to hear; as was your comment about doing more and driving less. Comfort drive was the reason we kicked all other manufacturers to the curb. From there it was only a matter of putting more and more check marks in the Newmar columns as we came to "know the difference".

Thanks!

[NWLanding]

Originally Posted by 007";1770613]I will asume you have already read the [URL="http://www.irv2.com/forums/f103/newmar-quick-tips-and-easy-mods-3-a-113631.html#post1080927

HOOT's links in QT's # 3[/URL] and would advise follow the HOOT's roost meeting which I'm sure will have more info for you use.
5 years is a long time in the RV industry and things do change the only thing I have seen change since 98 and my first Newmar has been a positive position for highline coach owners with the way Newmar now works one on one with them in developing the coach of their desires.
These coach's do cost and may cost more in later years.

Thanks 007. We've read a significant amount on the threads you referenced and we find ourselves going back and reading things again. These discussions and personal accounts have bean significantly influential to our learning process.

Your point about 5 years being a significant amount of time is well made. Looking back over the last five years was quite interesting, as will be the next five. Actually, understanding where the industry has come in the last five years has shaped what we want. 2012 seems to be a pivotal point.

Every minute we spend understanding and defining what we want, in the context of what's currently available will hopefully serve to sharpen our focus and making well informed decisions when the time comes.

Hopefully my questions to the group won't be to fatiguing to everyone until that day comes!!

["007"]

Hopefully my questions to the group won't be to fatiguing to everyone until that day comes!!

Not at all there maybe members following your threads and are to bashful to ask, maybe one of the Hoot's will be moving up to the next coach lineup in a few years.

[redbaron73]

As 007 has posted, 5 years makes a very big difference, especially if you are buying new. If you plan on buying used, then I would suggest that you keep track of both models in this forum, noting problems that get mentioned, so that when you do purchase, you will be able to identify if these have been corrected.

If you were buying today, I would ask first of all - do you plan on keeping it "forever" or do you already plan on trading up in another 3-6 years? May sound silly, but I purchased my DSDP knowing that I would be replacing it in 3-6 years, and that allowed me to make certain decisions differently. Both coaches are built on the same factory and have the exact same warranty, same customer service.

The engine difference is not a big deal if both are ISL, as you can always upgrade the 400 ISL to a 450 ISL with a software upgrade. The cost of this upgrade varies greatly, and you should research the viability of doing so. The ISL is a great engine, and the torque is what really matters in these machines.

You can upgrade most of the features on a ventana to be a base version of a Dutchstar, as you can upgrade a DSDP to be close to a MADP.

Side radiator for me is only really important if you want to do your own service. If you are taking to a dealer/shop for service, then you don't really care. Most don't give you a discount for side vs rear radiator. I personally prefer to do most of my own service, so a Side radiator was a MUST HAVE.

IFS is a very big deal, but again, if you have never experienced it, then I don't think you will be disappointed with the drive of a Ventana. With Comfort drive, it is a great RV.

My personal advice is if you are going to be "checking every box" on the options list of a Ventana, then I would seriously consider the DSDP. Remember that on resale, most dealers and private individuals will look at the NADA value of the RV WITHOUT ANY OPTIONS. Whatever that price is, that is what they will consider. They will not give you more because you added the tile throughout the coach, added LED lighting, changed your microwave to a higher end, etc.

Hope this helps - and good luck on your Journey!

[Lee L]

From our recent experience, buying a new Ventanna 4369 with every option available (other than special ordered) the choice came down to two things: IFS and side radiator vs. rear radiator. IFS is one of those (for me), really nice to have, but not terribly important (the cost difference would not have made a difference) and what I have experienced with Comfort Drive, I can't imagine it making much perceivable difference. Side radiator, yeah, I can see the positive in that, just because I like to be able to "poke around" a bit. Bottom line is that I no longer do my own routine maintenance on any of our many vehicles, and I surly won't start on this coach!

Our Ventanna, with all the options, does everything that a DS will do, with 50 less horsepower and several thousand less dollars. Granted, I have yet to do the real mountains out West, that will probably come next summer, but I have yet to run out of throttle . And if I do, we'll… I retired to get out of the rat race.

We bought what works for us…I think that is the key. MaMa is happy with the floor plan and the "gee whiz" stuff, I am happy with the mechanical/technical side…a match made in hevan!

Good luck on your guest, that is truly half the fun!

Coming from a technical background, I really can't wait to see what the next 5 years brings!

(Never forget that "objects in the mirrors may be closer than they appear". I delivered our coach to the dealer in Dallas, today because a fence post was exactly that! Oh well, fiberglass is a fairly easy fix as long as insurance is paying the majority!

[harleychief]

[QUOTE=NWLanding;1769440]
Here is what I've come up with:

• 50 HP difference on a Cummins ISL powerhouse

Chassis:

• 54,600 (DS) vs 54,000 GVWR (Ventana)

• Front ZF independent front axle, 17,000 lbs capacity (DS) vs Front Detroit I-Beam, wide track, 14,700 lbs capacity (Ventana)

• 150 gal (DS) vs 100 gal fuel tank (Ventana)

• Bigger Tires: Michelin XZA1 315/80R (DS) vs XRV 305/70R (Ventana)

• 9,500 NCC (DS) 10,500 NCC (Ventana

• Side radiator (DS) vs rear radiator (Ventana)

Standard/Options:

• There is (I think) conflicting information between the Ventana brochure and the Newmar web site on hydronic heat, I think it's standard on the 43 foot Ventana models but I'm not sure if it's diesel or gas.

The rear vs side radiator is another concern. But not sure if I'm overemphasizing this in terms or cooling abilities and limiting any minor owner maintenance.

- Front ZF independent front axle, 17,000 lbs capacity (DS) vs Front Detroit I-Beam, wide track, 14,700 lbs capacity (Ventana) - Don't underestimate front axle capacity, especially if your full timing. I've read posts that some folks had problems with front axles that were rated too close to the actual weight of the front end.
- Side radiator (DS) vs rear radiator (Ventana) - As many have said working on a side radiator is easier. I don't think engine cooling is an issue with either. But here is one thing to consider with a rear radiator, most work will be done through a hatch at the rear of the coach. That means that tools, parts, greasy oily things will be brought through the coach. To me that invites Mr. Murphy to spill something on the carpet or break something going in and out of the coach.
- Hydronic heat - I've had 3 RVs with regular propane heaters, my current one has hydronic. I don't want to go back to a regular furnace. The hydronic heat adds a couple of things. The heat has more humidity since it is basically hot liquid going through a radiator with a fan blowing across it. Hydronic heat is much more even, think of it as a bunch of mini furnaces spread around the coach as opposed to 1 centrally located furnaces pushing air throughout the entire coach. Also with hydronic heat you don't have a water heater, it makes hot potable water on demand so that means you have virtually unlimited hot water. Nice when both you and the DW want to take showers, laundry, etc., etc., all back to back to back.
- Here are a couple of other things to consider: Residential refrigerator, much better than a regular RV reefer. Washer/Dryer, we've had both an all in one and a stacked combo, the stacked combo is much faster and if one breaks you don't have to replace both.
Now my reply is too long so I'll stop, but you have some good concerns. Keep reading and getting educated, it's the best thing.

[Dav5942]

If going to Alaska you do not want a rear radiator! Much more prone to dusting your engine.

Floor plan and having it built to your needs(as Newmar will) are by far the most important things.