DEF Deleted ISX 600HP

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by Bedlam

DEF knocks down NOx emissions. Manufacturers used to run colder engines with more particulate output and EGR before DEF made it into the system. The guys with DFP issues are usually the initial year before DEF was added.


A DEF bypassed system is either running colder to keep NOx down and filling up your DPF more often requiring more regenerations or it is running hotter and emitting high amounts of NOx.

This is actually confusing the SCR with the DPF. On every Cummins system diagram I’ve seen the three “cans” (which all look pretty much alike and are thus easily confuse at a glance) - the DOC, DPF, and SCR, are mounted in that order, front to rear. Volvo does things a bit differently and some systems on pickups are different.

The DOC converts carbon monoxide (CO) and hydrocarbons into carbon dioxide, the DPF filters and burns soot which requires the occasional regen sometimes with the help of diesel injected into the exhaust, and the SCR converts NOx (nitrogen oxide, not to be confused with nitrous oxide) to nitrogen and oxygen (air) with the help of injected DEF which turns to ammonia in the presence of high heat and does it’s chemical reaction thing.

So......deleting the DEF part of the equation will allow NOx to exit the tail pipe and risk destroying the planet, but it will not affect anything happening in the DPF as long as that portion of the system was left alone, and this will not “roll smoke” either.

If the DPF was disabled it would have to be removed because it would soon plug up, and if it were removed, some form of fabricated replacement would have to be installed to fill the gap. My guess is this is not the case on this coach.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by Winger2

The only hilarity is that someone spends money on these chips and programmers thinking some little shop knows more then the manufacturers.
Illegally removing the DEF system is not solving the def head problem. It is creating numerous problems

I’ve just nibbled around the edges of this with casual interest, but it appears that they’ve taken Insite (Cummins diagnostics), and pulled the commands to ignore the various emissions system components to accomplish whatever goal the customer is after. They do this remotely, so it’s not like a tuner chip gizmo that fools the ECM - it’s programming changes to the ECM to allow the thing to run under different conditions.

I agree that some of those aftermarket tuners are pretty dumb for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that you can develop more power than the engine can handle. A friend of mine was thrilled that he could tow his 35’ 5th wheel up grades at 70mph until the bottom end of his duramax failed. Then it wasn’t fun anymore.

[lenny-shawna]

Originally Posted by Winger2

The manufacturers spent millions on design and some guy who has 10 employees is making chips and programmers and people are buying them.
Are there DEF head failures, yes, are there tire failures, yes. But to think you are smarter then the manufacturers is priceless.

The manufacture created a device to please the government who forced an emissions time frame that was unrealistic to meet. Those "smart" manufactures created what was needed and it's the people, you know rv owners who get to foot the bill for others incompetence.

Yes, it happened to me and cost over $5,000 plus it took a month for my previous coach, a Winnebago Tour to get repaired. We had to leave it in Atlanta and then a month later I had to fly in to pick her up. I made one other trip, about 2 weeks after it was towed to the shop for me to sleep in it with the generator running in order to charge the batteries.

So ya, get rid of that crap because that is what it is.

[FredV]

While working at a GM dealership we took in a 2008 Ford F350 diesel on trade which had the DPF and SCR removed. The sales department wanted me to make the check engine light go away. The service manager and I made it clear to sales how big a mistake it was to take such a vehicle in. I ended up installing all the missing parts which cost between 3-4 grand in parts and labor. We ended up losing a ton on that truck but knowing that we couldn't be busted for selling a tampered with vehicle had it's own reward.

[aguablanco]

Originally Posted by brynwood

Maybe we should ALL remove these Gov't mandated items! Can't throw us in jail. Look at the border. I'm tired of Gov't overreach...just sayin'

If cleaning our air is government overreach I am in. I also like clean water and land. They don't need to throw anybody in jail. If emissions tests are failed your coach won't be licensed. I use about a gallon of DEF per 1000 miles. Not much of a sacrifice to make at ~$10 for 2.5 gallons.
RichH

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by aguablanco

If cleaning our air is government overreach I am in. I also like clean water and land. They don't need to throw anybody in jail. If emissions tests are failed your coach won't be licensed. I use about a gallon of DEF per 1000 miles. Not much of a sacrifice to make at ~$10 for 2.5 gallons.
RichH

My pickup uses about that much too - less than 7 gal in 5000 miles. My coach uses quite a bit more. But the issue has nothing to do with the cost of DEF, or whether or not you value clean air for that matter.

The issue is reliability and the reality that you could be stranded anytime, anywhere, in potentially unsafe conditions, faced with thousands in towing and repair costs, and on top of that there is an extreme parts scarcity causing stranded coaches to remain out of service wherever they are stuck for months. And for many these coaches are their homes. All this with a system that is actually still functioning properly but just has faulty sensors.

Until this gets sorted properly, I see no reason to concern myself with either the minor legalities or the minuscule impact on the environment that a coach modified to avoid these issues may pose. If these systems worked properly and didn’t significantly impact the reliability of the vehicles there wouldn’t be an issue.

[kluza2786]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

This would be my concern along with trying to sell it.

https://www.diesellaptops.com/blogs/...etes-and-tunes



"Once you’ve deleted your emissions, you will be hard-pressed to find a franchised dealership to assist you. They don’t want the liability of working on removed emission equipment, and they have no way to warranty the work. That means you are now on your own to find a qualified independent facility that will work with you. As most of you know, seeing these on the open road can be difficult at best, even if the engine problem you are having has nothing to do with your tune or delete."


If you are ever thinking about selling or trading your truck in, you will more than likely run into issues. If you do sell it with deleted components, the person that purchases your vehicle or takes it on trade has a legal case against you. You performed an illegal modification and didn’t notify the buyer; you are opening yourself up to lawful (and costly) matters. You will more than likely need to restore all deleted components to their original configuration at your expense. Even bringing your truck to an auction doesn’t take you off the hook, as the person below noted in a forum. You’ll often find law enforcement showing up at public auctions to ensure no shenanigans are happening.


I know our local Freightliner and Cummins shop won't work on deleted vehicles and nor will the Ford dealership.

As someone who has had VP - Operations responsibility at a Detroit Diesel-Allison distributor, a Navistar truck dealership, and a Cummins engine distributor - I can tell you that you're 100% ACCURATE. The potential liability for working on this vehicle will preclude any authorized shop from doing anything other than insisting that it be removed from the premises.

As the old movie line goes "Run, Forrest, Run"!

[Bobby F]

Originally Posted by Bedlam

A DEF bypassed system is either running colder to keep NOx down and filling up your DPF more often requiring more regenerations or it is running hotter and emitting high amounts of NOx.

Key word is "running."

[BillofOhio]

This is why I love my 97 F350 dually 7.3 Powerstroke.

[jcschultz01]

If the seller is trying to save a few $ on DEF by eliminating it, what else did they defeat to save a few $.

[Ebwhite]

Originally Posted by Winger2

The only hilarity is that someone spends money on these chips and programmers thinking some little shop knows more then the manufacturers.

Illegally removing the DEF system is not solving the def head problem. It is creating numerous problems

Many times these companies know far more than the manufacturers. The manufacturers goal is profits while meeting govt regulations. They don’t care about longevity past the warranty period. They like the constant repairs for their bottom line.

[CRV2]

For those who can afford a nice RV like the King Air, then the cost of the DEF is not a concern at all. While we don't know, I suspect the disabling of the DEF was because it was causing issues, perhaps been repaired a few times and the owner said on the last time, can we simply disable the DEF. I don't think anyone would disable the DEF without a reason and then if they did just want the more power, they would likely deleted all of the pollution controls which should be checked and asked about before any purchase negotiations because there could be more bypassed than just the DEF. ~CA

[palehorse89]

Originally Posted by jcschultz01

If the seller is trying to save a few $ on DEF by eliminating it, what else did they defeat to save a few $.

I know ya said IF, but highly doubt he was worried about def in a 800k Coach. Just did the complete delete of a problematic system which is not cheap to do.
If ya don't have emission testing and are planning to keep it , it will make you a great Coach without all the problems .
There are a lot of deleted/converted diesels on our highways , a lot more than most even know. Seen a couple delete threads over the years on here.....

[Piros1]

I read/skimmed through this and just thought I would throw my two cents in the ring. First I will say some of the above is true and will leave it at that. From my experience as one of the later posted said some shops will not work on the engine of this Coach. The reason is as soon as they plug it in to be the Cummins software diagnostic program Cummins will be notified Sam’s with Cat and others. In the other hand smaller shops not linked to Cummins would probably work on it.

Do that said, when the DEF emissions delete is performed correctly all of the exposed emissions equipment, filters and such remain but are gutted or blocked off. They then reprogram the computer with a program used in a country that does not require emissions equipment. This is done remotely via the internet. So at this point you have a non emissions vehicle that physically looks as if the equipment is all there and working. They would have to plug it in to a diagnostic computer to really know. It will most likely perform better and get better fuel mileage if it was done correctly.

I’m not saying it is the correct way of doing things, just how it is done.

As for as buying it I would probably be reluctant unless it is $20,000 below book value. You won’t be taking it into CA or at least I would suggest that you don’t. There may be other states that are very strict as well. The purchase would your gamble.