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Old 09-29-2020, 07:15 AM   #71
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I used a rubber dead blow hammer on our new to us '17 DS4369.
The first trip out I got 12 or 13 codes all relating to the DEF system. The engine started to derate so I stopped to fill the tank thinking that the dash gauge showing 3/4 full was wrong. It took less than 3 gallons to fill. After a few engine starts and stops the warnings stopped but the yellow check engine light stayed on. We made it home OK and I had my local truck service shop send a tech out to take a look. He cleared all of the codes and reset the check engine light. I gave the tank header a few light whacks with the rubber hammer and since then everything has been ok. He said that the float will stick and cause a lot of problems. He also said that if the codes continue to be set the header will need to be replaced. My local freightliner dealer was out of stock so I will wait and see. I suppose I should have it replaced before we head out in the spring.
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Old 09-30-2020, 06:27 PM   #72
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My coach was at the local FL shop this week and they had a truck waiting for a DEF head. Does anyone know what the cost of a DEF head is? Wondering if its worth having a spare as they seem hard to get these days.
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Old 09-30-2020, 07:44 PM   #73
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My coach was at the local FL shop this week and they had a truck waiting for a DEF head. Does anyone know what the cost of a DEF head is? Wondering if its worth having a spare as they seem hard to get these days.

I carry a spare. I paid around 950 if I remember correctly.
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Old 10-08-2020, 09:27 AM   #74
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I wanted to provide some further information about how bad this Def Head issue is. We have Blue Bird buses, and only 1 new model with a Def system. With 4900 miles, our Def head has gone out twice. We believe the most recent one went out from sitting, as the vehicle sat for 5 months due to Covid. We flushed the head extensively with no luck.

We are waiting to get the new head from Blue Bird. Currently it is a 10 week lead time, and we are in line behind 550 other def heads on back order. The manufacturer of these heads should be held liable.
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Old 10-08-2020, 03:39 PM   #75
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I wanted to provide some further information about how bad this Def Head issue is. We have Blue Bird buses, and only 1 new model with a Def system. With 4900 miles, our Def head has gone out twice. We believe the most recent one went out from sitting, as the vehicle sat for 5 months due to Covid. We flushed the head extensively with no luck.

We are waiting to get the new head from Blue Bird. Currently it is a 10 week lead time, and we are in line behind 550 other def heads on back order. The manufacturer of these heads should be held liable.

I most definitely agree. 👍
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Old 11-21-2020, 05:35 AM   #76
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While our coach was in service for other warranty issues, the check engine light came on and was diagnosed as DEF header failure. New part is being ordered. Coach has roughly 7,000 miles on it. I'm told this part issue is very common. Perhaps a redesign is needed here. The shop indicated item was on backorder, so they ordered the entire assembly which contains the DEF header (to avoid the backlog of orders).

Also, read in another thread that it is best to keep DEF tank full while in storage. I recall, prior to entering service (~2 months ago), the tank was 10%. I will definitely keep this level up.
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Old 11-22-2020, 09:07 AM   #77
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I purchased a Nexan 102P with the goal of being able to clear the codes causing the derate but it sounds like this may not be possible to clear any after treatment related codes. Since this is a speed based derate could the temp fix be unplugging the speed sensor that controls this? I did a quick survey on trans output shaft and driveshaft
but will need to get over a pit to locate sensor. With ABS and traction control this may not be that simple and will more than likely throw other codes but at least you could bypass the derate and safely get to a service center/avoid a tow.
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Old 11-22-2020, 03:08 PM   #78
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I purchased a Nexan 102P with the goal of being able to clear the codes causing the derate but it sounds like this may not be possible to clear any after treatment related codes. Since this is a speed based derate could the temp fix be unplugging the speed sensor that controls this? I did a quick survey on trans output shaft and driveshaft
but will need to get over a pit to locate sensor. With ABS and traction control this may not be that simple and will more than likely throw other codes but at least you could bypass the derate and safely get to a service center/avoid a tow.

i did catch a youtube video where a guy showed how he does just that (disconnect the speed sensor) on his freightliner truck (just how often does the poor fellow go into derate?!). On my dutch star it just felt like the throttle was disconnected, but maybe this would work. Let is know if it does, it just may save someone's life
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Old 11-23-2020, 07:30 PM   #79
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I'm at Velocity Truck Center in Tucson waiting on a DEF head to arrive from Phoenix tomorrow. This will be my 2nd DEF head at 31,000 miles. The rig is a 2017 DSDP 4018 put into service in the fall of 2016. This time, the errors acted a little differently and were steadier than the first time. The first time, the error codes and low def warnings came and went and didn't really cause any real issues. Although it did d-rate once, I turned off the coach and started it again and the d-rate was gone. This time, I got a 'very low def' warning after stopping for diesel. Drove 20 miles and stopped at a rest stop and when I started it up again, got the red stop engine light, and the coach d-rated. Due to inexperience and the design of the rest stop, I had moved and had to pull over on I-10 into a gravel area. Being Sunday and a full voice mailbox for the only capable tow truck company in the region, I couldn't get a hold of anyone for a tow so was happy with an Arizona Highway Patrol escort for one mile while I went 5 mph to the next exit where I was able to pull into the Triangle T Ranch in Dragoon, Arizona. It has a few RV sites and is certainly worth checking out. It isn't found in many RV Park search engines because it's a guest ranch. In the d-rate mode, pulling a Jeep Grand Cherokee, I couldn't get over a very small hill on the ranch road and had to unhook to limp over. Anyway... that night, I put the key to the left for two hours as suggested by Freightliner who said that sometimes clears the codes. In the morning, per a youtube video, I shut off the chassis batteries for 15 minutes. I also unplugged and turned off the house batteries for good measure. After 15 minutes, I turned the key to the right halfway not starting the engine. I let the system power up for 15 seconds or so and turned the key back off. I repeated that procedure 4 times and then started the engine. I still had the red stop engine light on and I assume I was still d-rated. I let the engine run a while... I'll guess at least 5 minutes. It sure seemed like a long time. After a couple of minutes, the flashing red low def level light went off and the gauge read correctly at 3 green bars. After several more minutes, the Red stop engine light went off and the system was normal. Excited to avoid a tow or a mobile tech, I started the 41-mile drive to Velocity in Tucson. After 10 miles, the orange service engine light came on and the DEF level flashed red, and it remained so the rest of the way. This replacement will be under warranty too, but the next one will not. I have learned not to dismiss any check engine issues and address them without delay. Just adding my experience to the many here and hope to help someone out like you all have helped me.
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Old 12-30-2020, 09:52 AM   #80
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One more DEF head failure. Currently waiting for part to be sent from Spartan to our local Cummins service center.

A Cummins service advisor told us to avoid truck stop DEF because it can be dirty so we were feeling guilty for not knowing better. - Good to find out it probably wasn't something we could have avoided.

Grateful for all who have shared their experiences and solutions on this thread.
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Old 12-30-2020, 11:03 AM   #81
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Quote:
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Which scanner do you have? I tried a Nexas NL102. I failed to get the 'plus' model which claims to reset some emissions codes, but it was actually not able to get any data from the engine at all, so I don't think the plus would work for me either. (2017 Dutch Star / Freightliner)
It seems to do everything but re-set the de-rate condition. Same with the plus model.

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But you do pay $400/yr? Or is there a different one for personal RV use that I'm not finding?
Even $400/year just *might* be worth it...
It’s $600/year now (unless it’s a different product?). You could also just buy the tool for $649 that you plug in and re-set and force re-gen with your phone. I still haven’t decided which is best - doing some other things first and if I have positive results I’ll advise on this thread.

You might have seen some of my posts on the issue(s) elsewhere - I don’t feel like re-hashing it right now. But I got some good ideas from this thread and will continue to monitor it. I’ll also post results of the nexts step(s) as I continue to struggle with this. I also like BroBox’s idea of filing the NTSB complaint - everyone here should do it.
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Old 12-30-2020, 04:23 PM   #82
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Just found this and though it’s John Deere, it’s opened up another area of research. Take a look - not a panacea, but something if it is applicable to Cummins:

OMSU56643

Here’s the text in case that link is wonky (looks wonky...):

US EPA Qualified Emergency Use — SCR Derate Override Option

This is a US EPA only option.

Operating the engine without emissions related derates could damage the aftertreatment system.


Description: US EPA Qualified Emergency Use – SCR Derate Override Option

Under the US EPA’s regulations the Qualified Emergency SCR Derate Override Option (Emergency SCR Derate Override) is considered an Auxiliary Emission Control Device (AECD), which is only permitted during qualified emergency situations. To ensure compliance with US EPA regulations governing this type of AECD it is important that operators read the following information and comply with the requirements.

Emergency SCR Derate Override enables a Selective Catalyst Reduction (SCR) equipped application to operate without emissions-related derates for a specified period of time during qualified emergency situations. A qualified emergency situation is one in which the condition of an engine’s emission controls poses a significant direct or indirect risk to human life. An example of a direct risk is an emission control condition that inhibits the performance of an engine being used to rescue a person from a life-threatening situation. An example of an indirect risk is an emission control condition that inhibits the performance of an engine being used to provide electrical power to a data center that routes ‘‘911’’ emergency response telecommunications.


Emergency SCR Derate Override Activation / Reporting

The operator can activate the Emergency SCR Derate Override through the operator interface. Once activated, the engine can operate free of emissions-related derates for 120 hours. If the derate condition is corrected during the 120 hours, the Emergency SCR Derate Override can be paused in order to preserve the remainder of time for future use. The option expires along with any remaining time 240 hours after the Emergency SCR Derate Override is activated.

When the Emergency SCR Derate Override has expired, the engine informational Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) is displayed to the operator upon every engine start and every hour until acknowledged by the operator. To clear the DTC and reset the Emergency SCR Derate Override timer for future use, the operator (or other person responsible for the engine/equipment) must submit a report to the John Deere Dealer Technical Assistance Center, which must include the following:

Contact name, mail and email addresses, and telephone number for responsible company or entity
Description of the emergency situation, the location of the engine during the emergency, and the contact information for an official who can verify the emergency situation (such as a county sheriff, fire marshal, or hospital administrator)
Reason for the Emergency SCR Derate Override activation during the emergency situation, such as the lack of diesel exhaust fluid, or the failure of an emission-related sensor when the engine was needed to respond to an emergency situation
Engine’s serial number
Description of the extent and duration of the engine operation while the Emergency SCR Derate Override was active, including a statement describing whether or not the Override was manually deactivated after the emergency situation ended
In no event may this report be submitted to John Deere or other qualified service provide later than 60 calendar days after the Emergency SCR Derate Override is activated.


LEGAL Notification

The following actions by the operator are an improper use of the Emergency SCR Derate Override and are prohibited by the Clean Air Act and US EPA regulations:

Activating the Emergency SCR Derate Override for something other than a qualified emergency situation;
Failing to disable the Emergency SCR Derate Override after a qualified emergency situation ends; and,
Failing to notify John Deere and send it reports as required in this Operators Manual and federal regulations. Note: John Deere is required to report to the US EPA the operator’s failure to report to it any Emergency SCR Derate Override event (to the extent it becomes aware of such event).
The maximum civil penalty the US EPA may assess under 40 CFR 1068.101 is $4,454 for each day an engine or piece of equipment is operated in violation of the requirements associated with the Emergency SCR Derate Override.

US EPA regulations governing the Emergency SCR Derate Override can be found at 40 CFR §1039.665, as may be amended.

DX,SCR,EMRGNCY,OVERIDE,US-19-
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Old 12-31-2020, 08:17 AM   #83
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It seems to do everything but re-set the de-rate condition. Same with the plus model.



It’s $600/year now (unless it’s a different product?). You could also just buy the tool for $649 that you plug in and re-set and force re-gen with your phone. I still haven’t decided which is best - doing some other things first and if I have positive results I’ll advise on this thread.

You might have seen some of my posts on the issue(s) elsewhere - I don’t feel like re-hashing it right now. But I got some good ideas from this thread and will continue to monitor it. I’ll also post results of the nexts step(s) as I continue to struggle with this. I also like BroBox’s idea of filing the NTSB complaint - everyone here should do it.

Since that post, I did buy the OTR reset tool for $650 or whatever. Note there is no phone involved with that one, you just plug it in and let it do it's thing.


It didn't work.


In the end, Cummins roadside came out, spent 3 hours on it ,and determined it was just a software glitch. Nothing that noone but Cummins could have done. They just had to "re-calibrate" with their own proprietary tools. So they didn't charge me for labor time - "only" the > $1k for travel time. I've not yet gotten in touch with them to demand reimbursal for other companies I had paid to come out and try and re-set it.



Criminal.
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Old 12-31-2020, 08:19 AM   #84
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One more DEF head failure. Currently waiting for part to be sent from Spartan to our local Cummins service center.

A Cummins service advisor told us to avoid truck stop DEF because it can be dirty so we were feeling guilty for not knowing better. - Good to find out it probably wasn't something we could have avoided.

Grateful for all who have shared their experiences and solutions on this thread.

Holy cow, that is horribly offensive and irresponsible of the service advisor.
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