DEF Head Replacement

[tom chelbana]

This applies to both FL and Spartan chassis owners from 2010 forward. There has been a number of post of Newmar owners but even more Entegra owners forum about there coaches being towed because of the DEF system failure. Today I learned some information on this failure which Cummins has found. The term " Quick Start" is when when we start our engines and either turn the key right to the run position or just push the button without waiting to the engine warning lights to have turned off before starting. By not let the ECM and the rest of the electronics clear before starting appears to be part of these failures. The DEF head needs to power up and that only takes a couple seconds so from now on the LA will have to wait a couple seconds longer to fire up if this will have us avoid this DEF problem. This problem isn't limited to motor homes only.
We were thinking of purchasing a spare DEF head to avoid the tow and loss of traveling in the coach a couple days but at over 900$ we will try this No Quick Start procedure starting next start up. So far with 24K miles and 3 years we hope the answer to this big problem will be found.
Newmar Man

[Granite17]

Originally Posted by tom chelbana

This applies to both FL and Spartan chassis owners from 2010 forward. There has been a number of post of Newmar owners but even more Entegra owners forum about there coaches being towed because of the DEF system failure. Today I learned some information on this failure which Cummins has found. The term " Quick Start" is when when we start our engines and either turn the key right to the run position or just push the button without waiting to the engine warning lights to have turned off before starting. By not let the ECM and the rest of the electronics clear before starting appears to be part of these failures. The DEF head needs to power up and that only takes a couple seconds so from now on the LA will have to wait a couple seconds longer to fire up if this will have us avoid this DEF problem. This problem isn't limited to motor homes only.
We were thinking of purchasing a spare DEF head to avoid the tow and loss of traveling in the coach a couple days but at over 900$ we will try this No Quick Start procedure starting next start up. So far with 24K miles and 3 years we hope the answer to this big problem will be found.
Newmar Man

Lets all hope it can be this easy! I always wait to start till the light goes out, 20,000 miles in 18 months. Freightliner. So far so good!

[Boilervol]

I had a failure at 19,000 miles two months ago. My normal start up is to let the lights clear before starting. I can’t say I’ve never quick started but it would be the exception.

[DSDP Jeff]

Originally Posted by tom chelbana

This applies to both FL and Spartan chassis owners from 2010 forward. There has been a number of post of Newmar owners but even more Entegra owners forum about there coaches being towed because of the DEF system failure. Today I learned some information on this failure which Cummins has found. The term " Quick Start" is when when we start our engines and either turn the key right to the run position or just push the button without waiting to the engine warning lights to have turned off before starting. By not let the ECM and the rest of the electronics clear before starting appears to be part of these failures. The DEF head needs to power up and that only takes a couple seconds so from now on the LA will have to wait a couple seconds longer to fire up if this will have us avoid this DEF problem. This problem isn't limited to motor homes only.
We were thinking of purchasing a spare DEF head to avoid the tow and loss of traveling in the coach a couple days but at over 900$ we will try this No Quick Start procedure starting next start up. So far with 24K miles and 3 years we hope the answer to this big problem will be found.
Newmar Man

I picked that tip up about making sure the check engine light is off before starting from Dutch Star Don right when we got our 2019. He said it was to let the computers talk to each other. Makes sense that the DEF head needs to be squared away before start up. I've had no issues in 14,000 miles.

[DrPhil]

Hmmm...
Do I sound skeptical?

[Dutch Star Don]

I can't comment on the relationship between the waiting for the ECM light to go out and DEF head failures, but I do know that on my 2014 DS and my 2019 DS, if I start the engine before the ECM light goes out, I will almost always throw a code a few minuets down the road. I actually have the code written down, but it's out in the motor home. The code will eventually clear after several starts.

To me, waiting for the light to go out is no big deal and a good practice.

[tom chelbana]

Talked with Spartan the end of last week and a couple suggestions they made would be good to share with the rest of the Newmar family. If you get DEF messages on dash and/or false reading on DEF fluid gauge the first thing you can do is turn off for 5 min. your power to the ECM. Next would be to disconnect the large electrical connect the DEF head. Spartan said sometimes just tapping on top of DEF tank with a rubber hammer will at least let you move the coach off the highway. The last information would be if you get codes 3031 or 3364 then this would be sure that a DEF head replacement is needed. We have taken these notes on this DEF issues and lets hope a permanent fix comes soon just as we are hoping for the virus.
Newmar Man

[Scott201]

Our 2019 DS had about 12,000 miles on it when ours failed. I nearly always let all the warning lights clear before starting the engine. When I spoke to Spartan during the replacement process the gentleman assisting me told me his understanding was that the problem with the headers/sensors is being caused by cavitation of a graphite component in them. I'm not trying to be argumentative or claim to have any answers, just relating my experience and what I was told.

[brobox]

Originally Posted by tom chelbana

Talked with Spartan the end of last week and a couple suggestions they made would be good to share with the rest of the Newmar family. If you get DEF messages on dash and/or false reading on DEF fluid gauge the first thing you can do is turn off for 5 min. your power to the ECM. Next would be to disconnect the large electrical connect the DEF head. Spartan said sometimes just tapping on top of DEF tank with a rubber hammer will at least let you move the coach off the highway. The last information would be if you get codes 3031 or 3364 then this would be sure that a DEF head replacement is needed. We have taken these notes on this DEF issues and lets hope a permanent fix comes soon just as we are hoping for the virus.
Newmar Man

Just happened to me on a brand new 21 Cornerstone with 1,557 miles. I never quick start, but took the coach in to Florida Spring and Axel to have an alignment and ride height set. Back to get the coach that afternoon, written on the work order it was test driven twice. When I picked the coach up the 3031 and 3364 codes. They quick started it and blew the DEF sensor. Waiting for the arrival of the new now. DO NOT quick start the new units and be sure to tell them if it is taken in for any kind of service. I learned that one the hard way.

Don, the code on the 450 after a quick start on mine was 1081. I know that one by heart. The new digital dash is much easier to avoid a quick stater, no key to turn prematurely.

[tom chelbana]

Good to here from Chuck with his information on Quick Starting. Until this DEF head issue comes up with a for sure answer" Slow Start " should be the way to go.
Newmar Man

[Granite17]

That’s an interesting theory! About a year ago I had a check engine light stay on after starting and called Freightliner. It was the same 1081 code and Freightliner explained that it meant “wait to start” and not to worry it was ok to drive and would go away next day day. Sure enough the next day it was gone upon starting out and didn’t reappear for a couple weeks. This time we had been traveling a couple of hours when it popped on. I again called Freightliner and again was told it was the “ wait to start” code, possibly a bad sensor, if it continued take it in and have them replace. But nothing to worry about. Well the light popped on while traveling a couple of more times over the next couple months. Then it went away and hasn’t reoccurred in 9 months and 15,000 miles.
Finally had Freightliner liner check when I was in for another issue and the tech said yes it has popped on 5 times, but not for over 15,000 miles. “ That’s what we call a ghost code and since it has been so long , we don’t even attempt to analyze “. He did hook up and do the latest ECM update.
But as far as the DEF head issue,
no problems so far.
Gremlins!

[Johninar]

I can't say that I have ever quick started my coach. It may be true that this contributes to DEF Header failure, but I think it's just another excuse for a substandard part design. I have heard or read so many excuses for this: old DEF, bad DEF, contaminants in DEF, Truck stop DEF, WalMart DEF, crystals in DEF, and the list goes on. I am on Gen 6 Shaw DEF header. Time will tell. Right now I don't believe much of what the manufacturers say. And please understand I am not doubting what Tom has shared, I just don't believe Cummins.

[brobox]

Originally Posted by Johninar

I can't say that I have ever quick started my coach. It may be true that this contributes to DEF Header failure, but I think it's just another excuse for a substandard part design. I have heard or read so many excuses for this: old DEF, bad DEF, contaminants in DEF, Truck stop DEF, WalMart DEF, crystals in DEF, and the list goes on. I am on Gen 6 Shaw DEF header. Time will tell. Right now I don't believe much of what the manufacturers say. And please understand I am not doubting what Tom has shared, I just don't believe Cummins.

It is a junk parts, they are on generation 6 on the DEF sensors and 6 is as bad as 1. On my 19 Cornerstone, I changed DEF fluid to drive it to Atlanta to trade it in. The DEF had sat for over a year and I didn't trust the fluid as it smelled strong. Drained about 7.5 gallons and added 7.5 gallons of fresh DEF. Started it up, CEL and the DEF codes, bad DEF sensor. The coach had 1,900 miles. The new DEF sensors do not take much to make them fail. I have had 2 fail in 2 new coaches, both under 2,000 miles and it didn't take much for either one of them to fail. JMO, it's not "if" the DEF sensor is going to fail, it is when is it going to fail.

[tom chelbana]

Reading more from Cummins about the DEF system and how Quick Start could be part of the problem. When the engine is shut off the fluid in the lines is returned to the DEF tank. This is done for one reason and that the fluid won't freeze in the lines. So when the engine is restarted the DEF pump fills the lines so the DEF system can operate. Could it be that by doing a Quick Start that the DEF head isn't primed so that over time this could be part or most of the problem? We should be getting more answers since this problem is effecting not only RV's but most HD diesels.
Newmar Man