Dutch Star 12v Electrical Problem?

[lonestarace]

Newmar Spartan Electrical Question?


Hi All:
We have a 98 Newmar Dutch Star DP on a Spartan chassis. My two maintenace free group 31 cranking batteries are old and load test weak, so I removed them and plan to install some new ones. The house batteries load test good and remain hooked up.


Here is the problem: The chassis battery curcuit is somehow connected to the house battery curcuit. I'm getting 12.5 volts at the chassis battery terminals and all of the things that the chassis batteries are hooked to,with the chassis batteries disconnected, and out of the coach? This voltage can only be coming from the still connected house batteries. If I try to start the gen, the gen starter relay chatters with weak voltage and amperage. If I turn on the keyed ignition switch from OFF to ON, the instrument panel comes to life. When I go to START on the keyed ign, nothing happens because there isn't enough voltage and or amperage to make anything happen. Whatever it is that is connecting the house side of the electrical system to the chassis side, is NOT able to carry much voltage or amperage?

The battery boost solenoid/relay tests and operates normally, as does the house(salesman switch) solenoid/relay.


Can yawl help me figure this out. I talked to a fellow at Newmar and he was stumped


Thanks in advance


Don, Lisa, and Lex

[GaryKD]

Hi Don, Lisa, and Lex,
Is the coach plugged into shore power? If so, disconnect the shore power. Does this change the symptom?

Does the coach have a B.I.R.D. (Bi Directional Isolator Relay). If so check to see it is working properly. The BIRD is usually located in the shore cord compartment.

["007"]

If you have coach plugged in you may have the 12v coming from house batteries or your converter.
The BIRD system if you have one will after fully charging your house batteries will send a charge to your coach batteries.
I'd do as Gary suggested and see if you loose the 12v's I do not think you have a problem its just working as it should.

[lonestarace]

Thanks GaryKD & 007.
No, I'm not plugged into shore; and yes I have an Intellitec Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay Diesel #00-00366-000. http://www.intellitec.com/pdfs/batte...300366.000.pdf
But why the weak voltage leaking from the house curcuit to the chassis curcuit?
Don

[RJay]

It sounds like your battery terminal connections may need cleaning.

[GaryKD]

RJay makes a good suggestion (which I forgot, there is so much to remember). When cleaning the battery terminals and wire ends, make sure you go to the chassis ground for the batteries (coach and chassis). Clean every ground you can find that goes to the batteries.

[Iron Man]

Cleaning battery terminals can't hurt, but I dont't think it is the issue here. The B.I.R.D (according to the PDF) is doing what it is supposed to do. The chassis battery voltage is below 12 volts so the B.I.R.D relay opens to keep from discharging the chassis batteries.

["007"]

I'd say John has it, the charge through Bird is a low charge to chassis batteries when the chassis batteries are hooked up.
The system is design to always keep house batteries fully charged than will send low charge to chassis batteries but always protect the full charge of house batteries.

[lonestarace]

Thanks Everyone:

All terminals at the batteries are clean and always have been, I'm religious about that.

What I'm not religious about is cleaning grounds everywhere else.

My take from the Intellitec pdf is that the BIRD is NOT doing what it is suppose to do. In the first paragraph of the Product description it states "when neither battery is being charged, the batteries are isolated from each other". This isn't happening. My house and chassis batteries are connected together. What is causing this problem?

I've chased the hot wire off the alternator, it goes to the starter solenoid then from there to the pos. terminal of the chassis batteries. I guess the starter solenoid is also the battery isolator. There is another smaller cable that comes off that same post and goes to the opposite side of the coach to another relay/solenoid mounted on the frame rail near the bat. compartment. I think this is the chassis battery solenoid/relay in the pdf schematic. The coach battery(salesman switch) relay/solenoid in the pdf schematic is in the electrical compartment with the bi-directional isolator relay delay diesel box, booster relay/solenoid, 75 amp charger/converter, automatic dual voltage charge controller, etc.

What's my problem:
1) Bi-directional relay
2) isolator relay (starter solenoid)
3) chassis bat. relay/solenoid
4) Both coach & chassis batteries need replacing because boost switch works, but coach still cranks to slowly
5) starter is going bad and drawing too much current
6) Bad ground(s)

Have I forgotten anything?

Don

[davecampbell]

The bird does not work as their tech info states, even when working normally. The system works by shorting battery banks together, and with chassis batteries out and 12V on the cables, that may indicate a solenoid closed, and the system believing its charging the chassis batteries (it doesnt know they are not there).

theres nothing "bi-directional" or "isolating" about that system. Their info (with an Alfa) indicates the system charges one bank, then another, which is false, it charges one, then crowbars the second on top of the first, which will eventually damage both banks.

[lonestarace]

Here is another thread that I did on the subject, Thanks.

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f84/house...tml#post735367

[gmccausland]

You don't by any chance have a solar trickle charger that is connected to chassis batteries? That may be generating enough voltage to light some lights but no where near the amperage to start anything. On my dutch star, the generatior is attached to house batteries, not chassis batteries. If you do have a solar panel, throw a blanket over it and see if you still have voltage.

Let me know. I am curious if this solves it.

I do agree with the grounds though. I will be doing mine again in the spring.

George

Originally Posted by lonestarace

Newmar Spartan Electrical Question?


Hi All:
We have a 98 Newmar Dutch Star DP on a Spartan chassis. My two maintenace free group 31 cranking batteries are old and load test weak, so I removed them and plan to install some new ones. The house batteries load test good and remain hooked up.


Here is the problem: The chassis battery curcuit is somehow connected to the house battery curcuit. I'm getting 12.5 volts at the chassis battery terminals and all of the things that the chassis batteries are hooked to,with the chassis batteries disconnected, and out of the coach? This voltage can only be coming from the still connected house batteries. If I try to start the gen, the gen starter relay chatters with weak voltage and amperage. If I turn on the keyed ignition switch from OFF to ON, the instrument panel comes to life. When I go to START on the keyed ign, nothing happens because there isn't enough voltage and or amperage to make anything happen. Whatever it is that is connecting the house side of the electrical system to the chassis side, is NOT able to carry much voltage or amperage?

The battery boost solenoid/relay tests and operates normally, as does the house(salesman switch) solenoid/relay.


Can yawl help me figure this out. I talked to a fellow at Newmar and he was stumped


Thanks in advance


Don, Lisa, and Lex

["007"]

Thats correct your Gen starts from your house batteries and will run your converter-inverter which will work the BIRD to charge both battery banks.
The small solar panel is for your chassis batteries and only to compensate for trickle discharges off your chassis battery. Its not big enough to charge a battery bank you would need a larger solar system for that.
There would be a red led on dash to indicate the small solar panel is working.
With the ignition off the BIRD will disconnect the chassis battery from discharging through the BIRD system.
If it is not you may have a defective BIRD isolator.
All my three Newmars have had a BIRD system for charging battery systems both house and chassis on gas coach's, never had any problems with any battery on any of the coach's. My present 7 year coach has same chassis battery and has no hesitation in starting coach.
Battery connections both on batteries and frame of your coach have to be clean and all leads for BIRD system must have good terminations.
If you look at BIRD circuit there are solenoids and fuses which will have connections and could cause a problem if defective.
Because you own a DP SHOULD NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
In a gas coach you may have a battery control system, not sure you have something similar in a DP.