Electrical & battery advice needed

[BVJandJ63]

Originally Posted by C.Martin

I should add...thanks for the schematic photo. So if you measure positives...instead of three...there are only two. The inverter and the “other one”. The “other one” is for the HOUSE and Bi-directional isolator(relay). Newmar sometimes runs one cable back behind the cord bay...and daisy chains the house power off the bi-directional isolator(relay). Instead of separate cables...only one is connected physically to the battery bank.

Hi Charlie:

So here is where I'm at. I went back out to the coach this afternoon and made the following observations (there are pictures below corresponding to these and to some questions):

1. First I checked the charge status and it was now at "FULL CHARGE 12.9/13.0V 0A".
2. I then checked the settings to be sure I was still on MULTI--I am. This is the setting that I believe alternates between FLOAT and FULL CHARGE status; when the voltage drops a ways, it goes back into FLOAT mode until it's at FULL CHARGE again. Should I be using a different setting for charge type?
3. I went outside and unplugged the shore power. When I rechecked the ME-RC, it still had the same reading as before.
4. I turned off the house batteries switch inside the coach (as if putting it in storage) and the ME-RC then displayed "No Inverter Comm."
5. I went out to the battery tray and used the clamp meter. I wasn't convinced I was doing this right and was trying to find all wires that I could measure independently--both positives and negatives. One of each of the main cables that came in to and from the battery bank both read 0.11A. All other cables (including the second main positive and negative cables) all read 0.00A. So I don't think there is any random draw on the batteries from an internal short in the wiring or inverter--is that a valid conclusion?
6. I then used the refractometer to measure each battery (3 times each x 4). The measurements were pretty much the same within each battery and all 12 measurements were between 1.12 (for the swollen battery) to 1.14 for two of the others (the fourth was 1.13 across all three cells).

If I'm following all this info correctly, I think the electrolyte measurements justify one or more attempts to equalize the batteries before I give up on them--is that right? If so, can I do that all together with the generator running? Or do I need to disconnect them all and try to equalize them one at a time? (I don't have a battery charger but might be able to borrow one for this approach if needed.)

I had one more question about what the "other" big wire is that comes in on the positive side of the batteries. The diagram (attached pic again below) does not match up with the wires I see on the batteries themselves. But I think you answered that in your post above and I'm thinking that whoever hooked everything up when replacing the inverter a year or so ago knows more than me and that the diagram is only "a guide" - thoughts?

For now, I don't want to try and equalize until I hear back from you about next steps. If it's a waste of time at this point, I'll move on to looking for replacement batteries. If you think it's worth the effort, then I'll try that next. Meanwhile, I don't want to reconnect shore power or even turn on house power until I confirm the next steps with you (when you get a chance).

Thanks again, Charlie!

[BVJandJ63]

Originally Posted by Cinequip

Quick clarification on "disabling" the inverter. That is done in the menu for your inverter - not by disconnecting house power. We have a different brand inverter, so can't advise you on the exact menu trail on your control panel. On ours, there is a shortcut key on the home page for enable/disable inverter. Real easy.

Remember, both inverter and charger are combined within the same piece of equipment. Disabling the inverter doesn't disable the battery charger. So, you can be plugged into shore power, with the inverter disabled, and have 120v power plus charging of the batteries. We only enable inverter when off shore power, and only when needing 120v power short term.

Ahh, gotch'ya. That sounds like an even better plan! I will need to revisit my Magnum Energy manual to see how to do that. It seems I should be able to simply hit the on/off button (there is one for both the inverter and for the charger on the remote panel) but I've tried that many times and it didn't seem to actually turn off the inverter. Although, it did appear to work this morning when I tried it... ��*♂️

[RVingNow]

The specific gravity readings indicate discharged batteries. A reading of 1.27 is fully charged. Reset the charger and do another charge cycle.

[Gootjr]

I read most but not all replies to your question so not sure if this was mentioned. Keep in mind if you get the batteries extremely low the inverter won’t charge them up. You need to use a external battery charger or combine them with cables or the boost switch to the motor batteries. The inverter can think they are bad and not charge. When you combine them it fools the inverter with the other batteries and it will start charging

[freestyle_freddy]

Here's a good article to read from Mike Sokol, a top rv electrical specialist, about GFCI outlets & fault currents that might apply to your situation.
https://www.rvtravel.com/rv-electric...gfci-dont-mix/

[BVJandJ63]

Originally Posted by Gootjr

I read most but not all replies to your question so not sure if this was mentioned. Keep in mind if you get the batteries extremely low the inverter won’t charge them up. You need to use a external battery charger or combine them with cables or the boost switch to the motor batteries. The inverter can think they are bad and not charge. When you combine them it fools the inverter with the other batteries and it will start charging

Hey, Gootjr--thanks for jumping in! No, I have not seen this idea in the thread, yet. I think it's a great thought! However, my "boost switch" is one that works only when you are holding the button in. Are you saying I can do that momentarily until the inverter goes back to bulk charge mode and starts the cycle all over again? Or that I would need to find a way to "permanently" engage the boost switch so that the inverter keeps trying to charge them all until both banks get up to a full charge?

[BVJandJ63]

Originally Posted by RVingNow

The specific gravity readings indicate discharged batteries. A reading of 1.27 is fully charged. Reset the charger and do another charge cycle.

Right, I was looking for a minimum of 1.25 based on various input, which is why I thought the batteries are resisting or unable to take a full charge now. Since the inverter keeps going back to FLOAT mode and then back to "thinking" the batteries are at (and displaying) a FULL CHARGE again (with around 12.9/13.0V before it drops again), I was thinking that means the batteries are done. But if there might still be life in them, I can try that, too, after I confirm with Charlie that I shouldn't try something different first. He's been helping me a TON to this point so I don't want to stray from his guidance and risk stepping backward without getting his input, too.

Question: if I do try this, what did you mean by "reset the charger?" Do you mean access the reset switch on the inverter itself and that should cause the inverter to start the process over from scratch? Would Gootjr's trick do the same thing?

[AnotherMike]

Quote trimmed for brevity...

Originally Posted by BVJandJ63

Hi Scott & Marcia! Thanks for the input. I think that's what we'll end up doing, too--we also have a fridge that will jump to propane when 120V is not available.

Please be aware that your fridge will draw some 12 volt current when on propane - the thermostat / control circuits run on 12 volts even when the fridge is on 120vAC.
Just for test and educational value you might want to put your clamp-on meter on the fridge DC power lead and note what amperage that load is.
When I had a absorption propane fridge I measured the current...
Note mine was tri-mode: 120vAC / propane / 12vDC
120vac at 2.7 amps when cooling, nothing when idle.
12vDC at 1 amp (the control circuitry) when idle or on propane
12v DC at 18 amps when cooling

I would switch my fridge completely off when it was empty for more than 24 hours... One less phantom load.

Mike

[BVJandJ63]

Originally Posted by freestyle_freddy

Here's a good article to read from Mike Sokol, a top rv electrical specialist, about GFCI outlets & fault currents that might apply to your situation.
https://www.rvtravel.com/rv-electric...gfci-dont-mix/

GREAT pointer, Freddy! Thanks a bunch! I ended up reading several articles and understand GFCIs much better now. Now I need to find his article on how to troubleshoot to locate where the leaks are so that I can try to eliminate or replace any that are causing the trips... if appropriate.

[BVJandJ63]

Originally Posted by AnotherMike

Quote trimmed for brevity...

Please be aware that your fridge will draw some 12 volt current when on propane - the thermostat / control circuits run on 12 volts even when the fridge is on 120vAC.
Just for test and educational value you might want to put your clamp-on meter on the fridge DC power lead and note what amperage that load is.
When I had a absorption propane fridge I measured the current...
Note mine was tri-mode: 120vAC / propane / 12vDC
120vac at 2.7 amps when cooling, nothing when idle.
12vDC at 1 amp (the control circuitry) when idle or on propane
12v DC at 18 amps when cooling

I would switch my fridge completely off when it was empty for more than 24 hours... One less phantom load.

Mike

Thanks, Mike! I will try to check this in the next day or so. First I'll need to locate the wires! We have not actually gone out on the road, yet, so the fridge has been turned off completely through all of this electrical adventure. So I don't think there should be any issue there but I know it will become a factor when we are finally able to get on the road and that will be great info to have. But I want to get through this battery issue before I spend any more time on the GFCI tripping (I'm not connected through a GFCI right now--I plugged in inside a closet, instead, and all seems good but I realize that, depending on where the leakage is, it would be a good idea to eliminate/swap the item with the leak instead of having to avoid the GFCI.

[Gootjr]

BJV, yes you could hold that down. It’s a heavy duty solenoid so it can be latched for a while. I ran my batteries down super low trying to get the auto gen start to kick in. After that the inverter wouldn’t charge. My engine and house batteries are next to each other so I just used a set of jumper cables. When the batteries get that low the inverter thinks they are bad. Just need to fool it.

[C.Martin]

Sorry, I was out helping a friend install 8 Lifeline Batteries today.

Yes...Multi works, but was designed for coaches that have multiple charge sources. So, it lets your Solar take the lead roll, etc... Since your batteries are having trouble...going into float will keep a bit more voltage on them.

As to equalizing...you are in a wonderful position with the refractomerter. Do a complete charge cycle, execute the Equalizing charge. Then...let the bank rest a couple of hours...then take refractometer readings...if they go up...do it again...if they don't go up...it's probably a waste of time. A lot of mfg...will have you repeat equalizing charges until no increase in specific gravity is noted. If that reading is in a normal range...you can see how well the batteries perform. If they never get I to a normal range...they are done.

.11A isn't an unusually high drain...so I think the deficiency is all battery related...not wild drain by the coach.

The diagram is how they wired it from the factory. Yes...people go totally freestyle at times. It at least explains what the minimum number of connections should be. I just didn't want to have you looking to measure three positives...when you may only have two. I have been helping out with two 2016 Ventana this week. One with Flooded Lead Acid Interstate batteries, the other with AGM's made by Discover. The schematics posted in the bay were completely different. When I swapped out the AGM's I wired the bank just as Newmar had originally...and the schematic is true...for the new Lifelines. The other coach with Flooded Lead Acid had a different arrangement. I rewired this one to the same layout as the previous coach. We'll check to see if we can get a new decal with the AGM schematic...but it won't be 100% the same. The 43' AGM coach has a 200A house fuse...the 40' flooded lead acid coach has a 150A house fuse. I'm not sure why they have different values for the same branch circuitry. Only a Newmar Engineer will know what went I to that decision.

It is fine to come up with more efficient ways to wire the bank...but if there is a chance that a journeyman technician may access the bank...you'll throw hime a slight curve ball if the actual wiring differs from a schematic posted in plain sight. They know how to read schematics...but will waste a bit of time remapping the wiring. They will figure it out...but the tine they spend is coming out of your pocketbook. Yes...I'm anal... I will be making a new schematic to post in my bay...so it accurately depicts my new layout. I usually do my own maintenance...but if I have someone else do some work on the coach, I would like the schematic to reflect the actually wiring they will find.

[BVJandJ63]

Originally Posted by C.Martin

Sorry, I was out helping a friend install 8 Lifeline Batteries today.

Yes...Multi works, but was designed for coaches that have multiple charge sources. So, it lets your Solar take the lead roll, etc... Since your batteries are having trouble...going into float will keep a bit more voltage on them.

No worries, Charlie! I don't expect anyone to be waiting for me to post again. Just glad you were able to reply (as always!). Thank you! And good to know about Multi.

[*]As to equalizing...you are in a wonderful position with the refractomerter. Do a complete charge cycle, execute the Equalizing charge. Then...let the bank rest a couple of hours...then take refractometer readings...if they go up...do it again...if they don't go up...it's probably a waste of time. A lot of mfg...will have you repeat equalizing charges until no increase in specific gravity is noted. If that reading is in a normal range...you can see how well the batteries perform. If they never get I to a normal range...they are done.

Ok, will do that tomorrow morning. Meanwhile, I just went out to check status (house batteries were still turned off with no shore power). The voltage showed 12.9 still (so no perceptible draw since last night). I turned the house power back on and it stayed at 12.9 until I turned on one set of overhead LED lights, then it dropped to 12.8 right away.

(BTW: am I correct to think that the overhead lights are running directly off of the batteries? There did not seem to be any change to the inverter status--it continued to read "OFF 12.8V 0A".)

Then I reconnected shore power and the inverter started a new ABSORB cycle with 14.9/15.0V + 40A (I turned the max charge rate down to 40% for now). I have the absorb setting set to 90 minutes and then it should go back in to FLOAT mode until it's back at FULL CHARGE. Question: when it gets back to full charge and I trigger the equalization cycle, is it safe/possible to do that charge simply from shore power? Or should I start the generator and leave it running throughout the equalization cycle?

[*].11A isn't an unusually high drain...so I think the deficiency is all battery related...not wild drain by the coach.

I think I'm happy about that! While it is much more expensive (probably) to replace the batteries, I was not looking forward to trying to find an unreasonable draw on house batteries that are "disconnected."

The diagram is how they wired it from the factory. Yes...people go totally freestyle at times. It at least explains what the minimum number of connections should be. I just didn't want to have you looking to measure three positives...when you may only have two. I have been helping out with two 2016 Ventana this week. One with Flooded Lead Acid Interstate batteries, the other with AGM's made by Discover. The schematics posted in the bay were completely different. When I swapped out the AGM's I wired the bank just as Newmar had originally...and the schematic is true...for the new Lifelines. The other coach with Flooded Lead Acid had a different arrangement. I rewired this one to the same layout as the previous coach. We'll check to see if we can get a new decal with the AGM schematic...but it won't be 100% the same. The 43' AGM coach has a 200A house fuse...the 40' flooded lead acid coach has a 150A house fuse. I'm not sure why they have different values for the same branch circuitry. Only a Newmar Engineer will know what went in to that decision.

Or maybe they ran out of parts so they used the lower value fuse (and not the other way around! ).

It is fine to come up with more efficient ways to wire the bank...but if there is a chance that a journeyman technician may access the bank...you'll throw him a slight curve ball if the actual wiring differs from a schematic posted in plain sight. They know how to read schematics...but will waste a bit of time remapping the wiring. They will figure it out...but the tine they spend is coming out of your pocketbook. Yes...I'm anal... I will be making a new schematic to post in my bay...so it accurately depicts my new layout. I usually do my own maintenance...but if I have someone else do some work on the coach, I would like the schematic to reflect the actually wiring they will find.

Makes total sense. I'm not going to mess with it now (even though it doesn't match the schematic)--I just don't feel like I know enough, yet, to not screw it up. But I'll revisit this when I end up replacing these batteries. Maybe when I get to that point, I can get my dad to come visit and help me out (an electrical engineer but not always as patient with me and my ignorance as you have been! )

I'll let you know--hopefully by tomorrow afternoon--whether the gravity readings come up at all after the first attempt to equalize.

Thanks again!

[C.Martin]

Originally Posted by BVJandJ63

Meanwhile, I just went out to check status (house batteries were still turned off with no shore power). The voltage showed 12.9 still (so no perceptible draw since last night). I turned the house power back on and it stayed at 12.9 until I turned on one set of overhead LED lights, then it dropped to 12.8 right away.

(BTW: am I correct to think that the overhead lights are running directly off of the batteries? There did not seem to be any change to the inverter status--it continued to read "OFF 12.8V 0A".)

Short answer...yes. All the puck lights are DC powered. The “Map Light” over the passenger seat and the “Dome Light” over the driver’s seat are Chassis powered. I believe the rest are HOUSE powered. I can’t remember which bank the “ Courtesy Lights” are on. I’ll have to play with that sometime. One other exception...the Microwave Underwood light is AC powered from the Inverter.

Then I reconnected shore power and the inverter started a new ABSORB cycle with 14.9/15.0V + 40A (I turned the max charge rate down to 40% for now). I have the absorb setting set to 90 minutes and then it should go back in to FLOAT mode until it's back at FULL CHARGE. Question: when it gets back to full charge and I trigger the equalization cycle, is it safe/possible to do that charge simply from shore power? Or should I start the generator and leave it running throughout the equalization cycle?

The only difference is the parameter...it will charge at 40A again, unti the Equalization voltage has been reached...and then hold that for the time parameter. Check water levels before and after...and some recommend loosening vent caps, while equalizing.

-hopefully by tomorrow afternoon--whether the gravity readings come up at all after the first attempt to equalize.

Sounds like your voltages stayed up nicely... if you get some improvement on S.G. readings...that would be a good thing. I admire your tenacity. Hopefully, they batteries will reward you for it.