Feb 2013 Build Date---REDBARON73 DSDP

[redbaron73]

Originally Posted by joes2901

Red Barron, you mentioned a 0 gage wire for ground to the 2,8KW inverter, is the positive cable the same size? I am amazed that Newmar would use such small cables since the inverter can draw over 350 Amps when the battery voltage is low (below 12 volts). How many AH in the battery bank that Newmar provides with the all electric coach.

I replaced my converter with a Magum MS2812 inverter/charger, ARC50, BMK, and AGS and cannot believe that a 2013 Dutch Star would not be equipped with all these parts that work nicely with the power management system. And, the use of single 0 cables instead of 0000 cables seems to me substandard. I used only 0000 cables to all battery to MS2812 connections.

The positive cables are also 0 gauge. But there are 2 of them.
I may have made a mistake and will check the fuse. This would be a serious problem, so I appreciate you pointing that out.

None of the cable is labeled and I assumed I could tell by comparing the jacket size. That was not very smart.

For the short run to the shunt I may as well run 4/0. Can hurt since I added 28 inches anyway.

[redbaron73]

Originally Posted by "007"

Great write up RED but you lost me which is not to hard these days.
Is this some thing that is a upgrade for your use or is it something that Newmar may add in future on these coach's?
I would add to QT's # 3 post #90 on if it would be of use to members.
Not sure I have added your thread there yet, will check.
Between all your buddies and yourself you do provide some good reading if only I could understand, but you wiz kids sure are having fun.
I do understand but I am near the end of the trail in more ways than one.

I have added your thread with your buddies so add too the threads any future fresh business for preservation.

I know that newmar did not offer this in 2013. The PCS system was only recently updated and so I do not think it made it for 2014, but it might be something that is available as a special.

When I tried to get Newmar to add it, they refused to do it on the line but said I could get service to install it. After talking to service I realized they had never done one so I elected to do it myself.

It turned out to be a much bigger project. On paper and original planning I thought 8 hrs max with a few coffee breaks worked in.

My second one would only take 2 hrs now that I know what to do, but that learning bit was tough.

[redbaron73]

Joes2901 is right. The inverter fuse is a 350amp fuse rated for 3/0 and the additional fuse is a 150 amp for the house 12v.

I don't think the house 12v will ever have that much draw but when looking at the wiring I can see that a 1/0 cable is too small.

I am going to add an additional 1/0 cable both going to the shunt. This would give a 500 amp max and match the shunt rating as well as the rating on the two fused positive cables.

[Ma Snart]

Wow RedBaron73!

Talk about some serious electrical/electronic puzzles you are solving. I am with Steve on the fact that it has taken a couple rereads to understand both why and how you modified the RV for this battery mng system ( for lack of a more complicated or complete description of the added system).

One simple question. Did I understand you upgraded your 6 volts to Gel batteries from the factory? Did not know you could do that.

Wonder if that was cheaper than switching them out like I did at the dealer. New gel batteries cost me on line $300 shipped to the dealer and the dealer gave me $100 credit for each new factory battery I replaced (6 on my rig) - so net cost of about $200 a battery to switch to gel. What did you pay, if you do not mind me asking.

Have really enjoyed your write up and pictures on the the suspension and electrical upgrades.

It is apparent you are enjoying it to, and that is what is also really great.

Keep having fun...

Ma Snart

[redbaron73]

Originally Posted by Ma Snart

Wow RedBaron73!

Talk about some serious electrical/electronic puzzles you are solving. I am with Steve on the fact that it has taken a couple rereads to understand both why and how you modified the RV for this battery mng system ( for lack of a more complicated or complete description of the added system).

Maybe some practical usage examples would help:

My AGM batteries have 820AH of storage space. When I am traveling, I don't always need the generator. We are using the TV's, and residential refer going down the road. The BIRD system is adding power back into the battery, and the inverter is taking it out.

Before the BMK addon, the only way to tell how much battery I had was to look at the voltage. From 12.9 to 12.0 means very little to me, I just know that I don't want the batteries to get too low. It is much easier to think of the 820AH as 100% full, and 410AH as 50% full.

So as the BIRD is working, and the inverter is working, the BMK is keeping track of all the incoming and outgoing current, and calculating the NET difference.

To continue my example..let say you stop for the night and don't need the generator. Maybe even running the heater. You have a constant draw on the battery from the inverter to power electric blankets, alarm clocks, etc.

All of our coaches include the AGS but again, it uses voltage based measuremnets. This is very in accurate, because it is taking a reading while the batterys are in a state of discharge.

Ever run the microwave, and take a reading? it will show your batteries 11.5 or less. Stop the microwave, and back to 12.4...that is a huge swing. It is obvious you didn't add power back in just by stopping the microwave, and it is equally obvious that running a load shouldn't deplete your battery that fast.

The same is true for the constant draws overnight from the inverter. The voltage measurement is not accurate.

The ME-BMK monitors the flow of electricity both directions, and keeps track of it. The panel reads in a % value from 0 to 100.

I have my generator set to start once the battery reaches 80% State of Charge ( used 20% ) and recharge it to 90%. This is good for maintaining longevity of the battery, but only gives you a workable range of 205Ma/h from 100% charge, and 82Mah between cycles of the generator.

This is good for the overnight stops, as the generator never actually cycles for me. It is more of a failsafe.

If I was boondocking, or wanting to maximize the use of my battery, then I would adjust the threshold of the AGS start to 55% and recharge to 95%. This gives more workable range, but doing this all the time will reduce the battery life. For my battery, I can cylce from 100% to 80% over 3000 times. If I cycle from 100% to 50% (using 1/2 the battery each time) then the life is reduced to 1000 cycles. If I run the battery down to 20%, then only 500 cycles.

I know this was long, but hopefully it explains the 'why you would want this' better.

[redbaron73]

Originally Posted by Ma Snart

One simple question. Did I understand you upgraded your 6 volts to Gel batteries from the factory? Did not know you could do that.

Wonder if that was cheaper than switching them out like I did at the dealer. New gel batteries cost me on line $300 shipped to the dealer and the dealer gave me $100 credit for each new factory battery I replaced (6 on my rig) - so net cost of about $200 a battery to switch to gel. What did you pay, if you do not mind me asking.

I did have it done as a special. The cost was $1,229.00 for the 8 batteries, $153.625 per battery. So a little better than the $200, but I did not get a choice in battery. Newmar only sells the Discover EVG6CA-B AGM battery, which is a 207AH battery. http://www.discover-energy.com/sites...s/EVGC6A-B.pdf

I would have preferred a lifeline battery, but that choice was not available.

[joes2901]

redbarron73, are you planning on a battery monitoring system for the chassis battery bank too? I installed a Xantrex Link-10 on a pair of Lifeline GPL-4CTs (chassis battery bank) and they help you know that all is well with starting in the morning too. Your ISL diesel will pull many more starting Amps than the Ford V10 so you would want a 1,000 Amp shunt or pair of 500s for your engine batteries. What I like about the Lifeline GPL-4CTs is 1,095 CCA and 220 AHs and I can run the radio, hands free cell phone stuff, and other 12 volt loads connected to the starting batteries and know that everything is off (load is about .4 Amps) before going to sleep at night.

I have 4 Lifeline GPL-L16Ts for 800 AHs and run the MS2812 inverter 24/7 to power the DVRs, watch TV for 3 hours, use the computer for a few hours, microwave dinner, and when in below freezing weather run the holding tank heating pads, run the coffee maker and microwave in the morning and find the coach battery bank is at 65% to 75% SOC when the solar panels begin to work or it is generator start time. I expect 3,000 to 5,000 cycles or 10 to 12 years of trouble free battery banks (no water added and no corrosion near the batteries).

A little of the bloom is off the Newmar rose when they will not let you specify Lifeline AGMS or have them drop shipped at the factory for installation as the RV is being built. Does Newmar never install the Progressive HW050C surge protector, Magnum ARC-50, BMK, or battery monitoring kits on any of the RVs they build?

I guess it proves that if you want an outstanding RV you have to build some of it your self.

[redbaron73]

Originally Posted by joes2901

redbarron73, are you planning on a battery monitoring system for the chassis battery bank too? I installed a Xantrex Link-10 on a pair of Lifeline GPL-4CTs (chassis battery bank) and they help you know that all is well with starting in the morning too.

I had not considered this, but I see the wisdom in doing it. I am going to add this to my project list.

I have 4 Lifeline GPL-L16Ts for 800 AHs and run the MS2812 inverter 24/7 to power the DVRs, watch TV for 3 hours, use the computer for a few hours, microwave dinner, and when in below freezing weather run the holding tank heating pads, run the coffee maker and microwave in the morning and find the coach battery bank is at 65% to 75% SOC when the solar panels begin to work or it is generator start time. I expect 3,000 to 5,000 cycles or 10 to 12 years of trouble free battery banks (no water added and no corrosion near the batteries).

Was your stock battery tray configured for 4 batteries? These are taller than the stock tray. I ask because I think I can fit these in my tray configured for 8, and have a 1600MAh battery bank. That would be AWESOME. Doubt I will ever do it, but who knows

A little of the bloom is off the Newmar rose when they will not let you specify Lifeline AGMS or have them drop shipped at the factory for installation as the RV is being built. Does Newmar never install the Progressive HW050C surge protector, Magnum ARC-50, BMK, or battery monitoring kits on any of the RVs they build?

I guess it proves that if you want an outstanding RV you have to build some of it your self.

Newmar did research the option of adding the ARC50 and BMK, but I think once it was discovered that there was a PCS issue, they did not want to get involved. I never knew about this, and was just declined. Had to do a lot of research on my own.

I did get the Newmar service to install the HW050C surge protector, and Newmar factory installed my batteries on the line.

This is far more than I would ever have imagined possible, so I am not complaining one bit. Besides, I like to tinker.

[RedBird1]

Red:

The choice of Lifeline as a battery was not available, but do you know whether they would replace the standard batteries with Lifeline if you were to provide them at the time of buildout?

Or is Discover the only replacement battery they will substitute?

Phil

Originally Posted by redbaron73

I did have it done as a special. The cost was $1,229.00 for the 8 batteries, $153.625 per battery. So a little better than the $200, but I did not get a choice in battery. Newmar only sells the Discover EVG6CA-B AGM battery, which is a 207AH battery. http://www.discover-energy.com/sites...s/EVGC6A-B.pdf

I would have preferred a lifeline battery, but that choice was not available.

[redbaron73]

I do not know. I would imagine that if I had the batteries shipped there they would install ad long as dimensions were similar. Just guessing.

[joes2901]

redbarron73, my Bay Star had 2 group 24 Interstate batteries for the coach in a bracket at the front cap of the RV. I junked them and the Mopar starting battery and put the pair of Lifeline GPL-4CTs for the chassis there.

The 4 Lifeline GPL-L16Ts weigh 120# each and were laid on their 11" sides on a 1" plywood sheet with 1x2 spacers over the Ford chassis frame rails in a space as close to the rear axle as possible. The side by side batteries were wired serially and then front to back in parallel with 4/0 cables which ran to the Magnum MS2812; a pair of 19' 4/0 cables go to where Newmar had installed the original coach batteries. Since bad grounds often cause RV problems, a 3/8" bolt was welded to the Ford frame's cross member near the front cap for the house bank's 4/0 ground cable connection. A 4/0 cable also replaced the starting battery bank's ground cable to the engine.

The cables between the coach bank and the Magnum MS 2812 were short because I used the compartment below the battery bank and also added vent vans powered by the Outback solar panel controller.

Newmar helped a lot by running 1" conduits from the bathroom control panel to the basement compartment and from the compartment to the cabinet next to the entry door were it enabled locating all the important controls and meters in the compartment above the entry way. I hope these 4 pictures help my description of some of the work required to make my Bay Star a "keeper" until I get tired of boondocking and win the lottery.

[redbaron73]

First of all I want to give credit for this mod to Steve Morrison (skmwalden). Steve was gracious enough to send me lots of information vi email on how to do this. I spent a few weeks gathering parts, and finally had time today to install everything.

I have the GP Logistics 7' Folding ladder that folds up very compact, but still takes up space in the storage bin. After seeing Steve's mod for the sewer hose, I decided to do another one for the ladder.

I started with two (2) 5 ft vinyl fence posts. Steve was able to find them in a local Lowes, but I was not able to find them anywhere locally.

I finally found them on the home depot website. (Veranda 5in x 5in x 8ft Model # 73010700 Internet # 202084745)

I also purchased the end caps online. ( Veranda 5 in. x 5 in. Vinyl White Pyramid Post Top Model # 73003093 Internet # 202882811

This gave me free shipping, and totaled $64.30.


The next part was how to attach to the motorhome. Steve gave me the idea of using worm gear hose clamp. Looking under my coach I found that all of the under side was sealed nicely with rubberized material. There was two perfect spots where a 1.5" channel ran the width of the coach, and had a 2" metal tube running the length spaced 29" from the side. I tried to get a picture, but none turned out. The finished product will give you the location.

Since I was not planning on wrapping the worm gear around the entire post, I was able to get away with a much smaller worm gear. I found a 10 pack on amazon for $17.60. Ideal-Tridon 63 Series High-Nickel Stainless Steel Worm Gear Hose Clamp, General Purpose, 104 SAE Size, Fits 5 - 6-1/2" Hose ID, 127 mm - 178 mm Hose 10 pack

Here is the finished product painted, ready to install. The way I drilled the holes allowed the worm gear to loop around the frame member that was exposed, and drew the pipe tight to the bottom of the motorhome.

Close up of the holes drilled. I used a file to elongate one side to get a final position I was happy with.


The worm gear was threaded thru the holes prior to placing it under the coach.


Here is a picture of the tube hung. The worm gear is inside of the tube snug, and clear of any snags with the hose.

[redbaron73]

After both pipes where hung, I was ready to install.

First the sewer hoses and connections. This is the bucket of parts that I had in my storage bay:


I purchased a piece of gutter to use as a slide tray. It fits very nicely in the fence post, and gave me a way to store my short extension at the back and retrieve it when necessary.

Here is a picture with my short extension, standard sewer hose, and adapter ring.


At the back of the gutter I put a piece of wood, to keep the short hose from sliding off the tray. First attempt at unloading I didn't have it, and lost the short hose back in the end of the tube.

Here is a picture of everything slid in:


Here is a picture with the cap on. The sewer hose holder is towards the rear, and only opens from this side. The other side has the cap screwed on.


Here is a picture of the sewer hose connected. This also shows the position of the ladder storage, which is close to the hole for the sewer connection. I recessed the ladder holder on this side, since it is easier to get to it from the curb side of the coach.


Here is another view.

[redbaron73]

Here is a view of the ladder unloaded to show what is in the storage.


And a picture of the curb side closed up.


A wider angle of curb side.


A wider angle of road side.


This was a fun project, and really was very simple to do.