Hughes Autoformer install

[mre]

Originally Posted by 2BU Bears

After reading all the comments on the Hughes Autoformer I ordered one last night. I currently use a portable surge protector that I connect at the pedestal. I would like to continue use of the portable surge protector for more protection. Should I connect it at the pedestal before the HA or between the HA and the power reel? Thank you for the advice.

There topic posted back in November 2016 where subject was discussed extensively.

[redbaron73]

Originally Posted by CoreyinWP

Getting back to the purpose of the post, does anyone know how Georg Ohm installed his autoformer?

He actually did a great job installing into his Tesla, but that too was stolen by Edison and buried to remain hidden from public knowledge.

[CoreyinWP]

Originally Posted by redbaron73

He actually did a great job installing into his Tesla, but that too was stolen by Edison and buried to remain hidden from public knowledge.

Well done sir!

And that’s how we got the power company....Con Ed!

[redbaron73]

Originally Posted by CoreyinWP

Well done sir!

And that’s how we got the power company....Con Ed!

Sad thing is I grew up in Fort Myers, and regularly visited his winter home and museum. I thought very highly of the image portrayed by the foundation.

It wasn't until my son, 13 years old at the time, started talking about the "con edison" that I actually studied the history....wow, that was a jolt of DC (reality)

[cavie]

Originally Posted by 2BU Bears

After reading all the comments on the Hughes Autoformer I ordered one last night. I currently use a portable surge protector that I connect at the pedestal. I would like to continue use of the portable surge protector for more protection. Should I connect it at the pedestal before the HA or between the HA and the power reel? Thank you for the advice.

That AF must be before the EMS. If not the EMS will shut down the AF at below 108 volts and The AF will have no voltage to boost.

[redbaron73]

Originally Posted by cavie

That AF must be before the EMS. If not the EMS will shut down the AF at below 108 volts and The AF will have no voltage to boost.

The surge guard protector is not an ems, and has no low voltage or high voltage protection. If this is the surge protector in use, then it can be before the HAF.

That is why I said it depends. We are missing details on the type of surge protector.

[NXR]

Originally Posted by CoreyinWP

Getting back to the purpose of the post, does anyone know how Georg Ohm installed his autoformer?

They did not have autos in his time. They used horseformers.

Ray

[mre]

Originally Posted by NXR

They did not have autos in his time. They used horseformers.

Ray

Let me guess, that's not really true, your just "horsing around".

[KanzKran]

Originally Posted by Old Scout

….SOOOOO...if its a really hot day and voltage in the park is already maxed out and therefore low, and every RV in the park was using a HAF vs only a few.....how would this impact the CG's total amp [KW] consumption and the "average" voltage on the CG's grid? Understand, the real issue is CG infrastructure, but "fixing" your RV's power supply could impact others--yes or no?????

No.

Using your example of a really hot day with everyone's A/C running, the voltage to the A/C units will be low. So they draw more current because the motors are driving a fixed load* so they're outputting fixed power which means they're 'drawing' fixed power, which for a lower voltage means higher current.

So the A/C units are drawing higher current than if they were supplied with rated voltage. Without the step up transformer.

Add in the Autoformer, or any step-up transformer, and the voltage to the A/C units is boosted back to rated voltage (for talking purposes). At the rated voltage, they're drawing lower current.

But through the transformer, the output current to input current ratio is inversely proportional to the turns ratio, while the output voltage to input voltage ratio is proportional to the turns ratio. If the turns ratio is 1.1 to 1, output current is 1/1.1 x input current, and output voltage is 1.1 x input voltage.

Or, perhaps more easily envisioned, the input current to the transformer is 1.1 times output current, while output voltage from the transformer is 1.1 times input voltage.

So input current from the pedestal remains essentially unchanged whether you use a boost transformer or not, while voltage to the A/C unit is boosted back to where it should be when you do. The current from the pedestal will be the same whether you use the transformer or not (it will be elevated above 'normal') during low voltage events, and the only difference will be that the motors won't be drawing excessive current.

The park system still supplies higher current, but your equipment isn't having its life shortened from excessive heating within the windings. That's all it does, with fixed power loads like induction motors and power supplies like chargers/converters.

Fixed resistance loads are different.

I babbled on but with pretty graphics (#84) to go with it in this thread. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f278/pro...ml#post5182425

*Induction motors operate at essentially constant speed, and the A/C compressor presents essentially a constant torque for this discussion, so the torque x speed = power = constant.

[NeilV]

Originally Posted by Old Scout

….HAF--always been a puzzle to me.....sounds like a "perpetual motion" machine to me, or maybe "cold fusion".....seems like higher volts have to come at "the "expense of somethin else, eg, more amps.....would explain why campgrounds owners done like them to be used?????????
Conversely, understand that use of more amps reduces voltage....but don't get making more volts with fewer amps?????

Under voltage requires more amperage to allow your equipment to continue operating so it creates an escalating loss as more amperage due to low voltage is now being lost as excess heat is generated increasing overall wattage.

A major manufacturing facility or other large commercial complex would not think of operating without a voltage correction transformer on their main feed since it can lower their amperage draw overall by providing the correct voltage to equipment which also prevents the equipment from overheating and prematurely failing.

Whats better, to have 100 campers drawing high amperage due to low voltage with that overdraw increasing as their equipment heats up further lowing voltage or to have them correcting low voltage and preventing their equipment from heating up and overdrawing? Low voltage when not corrected causes cascading losses due to heat being generated which just continues to escalate.

A 30 amp AutoFormer connected to a 30 amp breaker is only going to draw what amperage the breaker will allow without tripping. Before I installed the AutoFormer the breaker on the pedestal would trip very often during brown outs however after installing the AutoFormer pedestal breakers tripping happens far less frequently. Campground owners should be glad folks have AutoFormers installed since overall by correcting low voltage they are keeping their amperage draw to a minimum and are not stealing power from others.

For sake of discussion if your coach is using 3600 watts at 120 volts thats 30 amps however drop the voltage to 110 and now your 3600 watts requires almost 33 amps and at 105 volts 3600 watts needs almost 35 amps however since the voltage is low and things stressed your equipment can be drawing closer to 4000 watts due to waste heat which at 105 volts is going to be closer to 40 amps being drawn until the breaker fails or your equipment burns out. Of course there is more to it but that's a simplified overview of whats involved.

So yes while correction can increase amperage draw to a degree it can stop the runaway cascade of losses caused by under voltage situations.


Better solution would be if camp grounds had properly sized buck and boost transformers installed in their facility to better protect themselves and their guests.

[AKOne]

Originally Posted by NeilV

So yes while correction can increase amperage draw to a degree it can stop the runaway cascade of losses caused by under voltage situations.

Neil, many thanks for the basic laymen explanation and examples since most of us are not electrical wizards. Misunderstanding abounds regarding this subject! https://www.irv2.com/forums/f258/fire-hazard-blame-shifting-456511.html

[AKOne]

Originally Posted by NeilV

Better solution would be if camp grounds had properly sized buck and boost transformers installed in their facility to better protect themselves and their guests.

My contention has been from the get-go, the burden is on the RV parks/campgrounds to provide the service they advertise, and we pay for. Old, inadequate and poorly maintained infrastructure is what can be found in many RV parks. A coast to coast trip last year, we stayed in many parks during multi weeks of travel. I manually test every 50-amp pedestal before plugging in. Many times I found miss-wired outlets, including Cabela's campground next to their HQ office. In addition, low voltage is quite common.

So I am suspicious of National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) motivation behind proposed code changes and newsletters that promote those changes by using fear, and, when a competitors product is promoted. The obvious question is, why is there such a big market for devices like Hughes and why do RV owners see the need to buy these products in an effort to protect their investment from damage? Answer? Old and poorly maintained RV park/campground infrastructure. To the NFPA folks the real issue should be apparent. These code changes smell fishy.

[KanzKran]

Originally Posted by AKOne

My contention has been from the get-go, the burden is on the RV parks/campgrounds to provide the service they advertise, and we pay for. Old, inadequate and poorly maintained infrastructure is what can be found in many RV parks.

This, of course, is the root problem. You don't even have to go back very far to see that minimum sizing requirements for RV park services are astonishingly low. My 1990 NEC allows a demand factor of only 37% for a park with 101 or more spaces. And until recently, 50A pedestals were only counted as 9600VA, not the 12,000 VA they are required to be counted as today.

Voltage drop is not code enforceable, either (it's in the fine print notes, or "fpn"'s, recently renamed "informational notes"). So a park could be in compliance with the NEC when it was wired, but be totally inadequate, especially if it's an older installation. Which is not really any different than the wiring of a S&B dwelling unit. The NEC requirements are minimums, and it's not a design guide either, and it says so right at the front.

90.1 Purpose.

(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use. [emphasis added]

Informational Note: Hazards often occur because of overloading of wiring systems by methods or usage not in conformity with this Code. This occurs because initial wiring did not provide for increases in the use of electricity. An initial adequate installation and reasonable provisions for system changes provide for future increases in the use of electricity.

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

Originally Posted by AKOne

These code changes smell fishy.

Yeah, no surprise there. I'm involved with other, unrelated, code making panels, and everybody knows who's pushing what for what reason. And it's not always to make things safer or better for John Q. Public, IMO.

[AKOne]

Originally Posted by KanzKran

I babbled on but with pretty graphics (#84) to go with it in this thread. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f278/pro...ml#post5182425

I missed your link during an earlier reading of this thread. The visuals are helpful ... thanks!