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RV Lifer · 11-10-2020, 09:48 AM

Hello all. Like a wet behind the ears newbie i have been reading iRV2 forums for last 6 months without actually joining so i could ask my own questions. My wife and I have been living in a fifth wheel for last 5 years and love the lifestyle but she wants to move up into a Class A. We pretty much know we are going with a Dutch Star either 4369 or 4362. I know there are many points of view on this but first question is New or Used. We are full time and not thrilled about having our home in the shop.

dmholt · 11-10-2020, 04:34 PM

You'll probably wind up in the shop no matter which way you go. Most new coaches have some issues that have to be resolved, and used coaches can also have their problems. Perhaps the best compromise is a 2 to 3 year old motorhome. The original owner will hopefully have taken care of all the new coach issues, but it will be new enough not to have many used issues. Also, if you buy used, have a qualified inspection done to uncover any issues that need to be addressed.

New2road · 11-11-2020, 05:53 AM

As DMHOLT indicates, all coaches end up in the shop. Just a matter of time. Where, for what, and how long are what we all deal with.

Sounds like you know what coach you want, just becomes a question of money after that. Are you good with a gently used one, can you live with what a dealer has on the lot, or do you wish to spec it out to your tastes.

If you do go new, and order. I would recommend the CPU option Newmar offers. Not cheap ($5k ish) but you get a coach that has been gone through well before you see it and then a week at the factory to really shake it out. Best money we ever spent. We have an Entegra on order and wish they offered that option.

Best of luck, see you around the campfire.

J.

RV Lifer · 11-11-2020, 11:16 AM

Thank you both for the info. I will definitely look into the CPU option. I think we will most likely go with the new one. I haven't really had to deal with the whole home going into the shop for several weeks, how do most full timers deal with that. Hotel, does the service shops let you stay in them on the property. I know everyone probably handles this different, but it is a concern.

groswald · 11-11-2020, 02:18 PM

Help me understand the CPU program...

You've just paid a huge sum of money for a new coach, which by law, should conform to specification and be fit for purpose. (no, I'm not naïve) You then pay the manufacturer another $5000-ish dollars to go through the coach with a fine toothed comb, identify problems that should have been found and corrected before it is delivered, and then perform what is literally warranty work to correct them?

Really?

It says a lot about the state of our society that a company with a reputation like Newmar's would even consider selling such a travesty, and even more that people would consider paying what is basically ransom to get the product they already paid for.

Apologies if I've offended anyone, but this is just too much. RV manufacturers will never do anything to improve quality if they can get customers to accept that what rolls off the line is lacking and pay through the nose to correct it. I can hear the accountants laughing all the way to the bank.

Regards,

Randy

Dutch Star Don · 11-11-2020, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by groswald

Help me understand the CPU program...

You've just paid a huge sum of money for a new coach, which by law, should conform to specification and be fit for purpose. (no, I'm not naïve) You then pay the manufacturer another $5000-ish dollars to go through the coach with a fine toothed comb, identify problems that should have been found and corrected before it is delivered, and then perform what is literally warranty work to correct them?

Really?

It says a lot about the state of our society that a company with a reputation like Newmar's would even consider selling such a travesty, and even more that people would consider paying what is basically ransom to get the product they already paid for.

Apologies if I've offended anyone, but this is just too much. RV manufacturers will never do anything to improve quality if they can get customers to accept that what rolls off the line is lacking and pay through the nose to correct it. I can hear the accountants laughing all the way to the bank.

Regards,

Randy

I think that Tiffin and Newmar are still the best bang for the buck, but I completely agree with you. I never understood the extra $5K and three weeks to fix stuff that should have been part of the original coach QC.

ExRiveter · 11-11-2020, 03:34 PM

I have a different perspective:
I purchased a new 2020 New Aire we found at the Hershey show last year and wish I had gone for the Factory Pick Up at Nappanee. I have been to Nappanee twice for warranty repairs and will need to go back in the spring for two they were unable to complete in October.
I traded in an Airstream and had no experience with motor homes. A chance to have someone go through the coach and explain how everything works, what to watch for, etc... would have been worth the $4,000 I was quoted if we had one built for us. (This was in Sept-Oct of 2019).
The time and travel costs alone would have saved me quite a bit. As it was I had to drive from Illinois to Albany, NY and back. It takes 3 days to get to Albany and only 5 hrs to get to Nappanee.
While I agree philosophically with previous posts about the quality issues, I don’t know of any manufacturer that has an absolutely perfect product. The more complex the system, the greater the likely hood of problems. Our coaches are pretty complex.....
Hope this doesn’t muddy the waters too much for you, but thought you might like to hear another viewpoint.
Bob

Ken C · 11-11-2020, 04:18 PM

We are full time and ordered and took delivery of our 2018 DS. While the majority of our warranty work was resolved by scheduling a trip to Nappanee after 4 months, a few other items were completed at a dealer at the end of our warrantee period. We have never yet been out of our coach for 1 night due to repairs. There are dealers that have hookups as well as the factory.

groswald · 11-11-2020, 04:20 PM

Hi Bob,

I do appreciate your viewpoint, and if what they are offering was just "Intro to Your RV 101" and selling it at a reasonable cost I'd be all for it. But...

I spent 40 years in high-tech, about half of it on the service side. If we'd told BofA or Kaiser, "Here's your new $1/2 million computer, and for another $5000 we'll actually make it work", we have been out of business inside a month.

Motorhomes really aren't all that complex from a systems perspective. Yes, there are a lot of moving parts, but none of those parts are individually complex (with the possible exception of the new bus-based control systems), and most of 'em don't even interact in any meaningful way. The simple truth of the matter is RV manufacturers have made the conscious decision to not invest in modern quality assurance/quality control, and, so far, the market hasn't forced them to. Some do better than others, Tiffin and Newmar being at the top of that list.

But, even they have their struggles. Some of their own making, others caused by upstream issues like supplier consolidation by component manufacturers who themselves seem to have no interest in producing high-quality parts. (we all know who I'm talking about)

All of this is easy to correct. The techniques and process are well know and proven over time. It would require a non-trivial cash investment, and would be disruptive in the short-term, but when done properly quality improvement drives down long-term operating costs and improves profit margins. (Warranty costs almost always far exceed the cost of preventing an issue in the first place)

And, yes, I did spend the last several years of my career working on and teaching quality improvement techniques and driving QI programs. No, I'm not looking for a job, but I know some folks who might be interested!

It seems I've pretty thoroughly hijacked this thread, so if there is interest in discussing further, perhaps we should open a new thread for it?

Regards,

Randy

Cmftblynumb · 11-11-2020, 05:31 PM

Randy,
Your viewpoint on the quality issues is certainly refreshing. As my wife and I get closer to taking the plunge the choice between Tiffin and Newmar is challenging at best. There seems to be a overwhelming acceptance of it is what it is with the quality of Motorhomes. I could understand the conversation of new versus used if the discussion was buy used so you do not take the brunt of the depreciation hit but buy used so hopefully the first owner worked out the quality bugs is mind boggling. What other major purchase is based on that logic? With the sellers market and a very loyal customer base for both Brands, which is very admirable, I would not expect the quality to improve any time soon. I too have drifted from the original post but images of failing windows and faulty furniture fabric dance way too often through my head.

New2road · 11-12-2020, 01:27 AM

Every time CPU comes up, this discussion happens. The value proposition for each buyer is different. their needs and wants are as well. Do what works for you.

For me, i found value in the CPU. I don't discount the argument that QA should have found the issues, or that the construction process should be improved to reduce defects.

there are people who strongly believe that buying used is the only way to fly. I get it.

My wife and I are not buy used type of people, it just doesn't work for us. Since we were buying our first coach, I knew that any infant mortality problems would deter my wife from wanting to keep RV'ing. For us, CPU provided a higher level of quality than I believe we would have been achieved via our dealer. It also provided a weeks work of invaluable training I was in dire need of.

If it was available on the coach we have on order now, I would do it again.

your mileage may vary, and for sure your value proposition will guide your path forward.

j

Xmcdog · 11-12-2020, 02:42 AM

First of all welcome aboard. Great to have you join our campfire.

I agree with your choice of a DSDP. Drool. Once the world gets back to something like normal again we will be looking at buying a used DS. Likely a 08 or there about. Can't afford to buy new and I am happy that you can.

As far as the CPU or FPU I naturally have no experience. However to have someone going over the coach with us showing how every switch, system works and the features, I think it would be worth it.

Even the new cars. I'm still finding features on our 2018 Buick. So on a coach I can only imagiine the learning curve. Being a man I won't be reading the 50 pounds of owner's manuals. 😂

Good luck and enjoy the entire process.:

BYoshida · 11-13-2020, 04:17 AM

Don't forget in the equation, the dealer you purchase from and their Service Center reputation. We've had crappy through the years and fabulous. With the fabulous, we have never lost a night of use. With the crappy, you may not see your coach for 3 months and it comes back in worse shape than when it went in. Find a really good dealer and look at what they offer and do they fit your travel patterns more than a factory stop for repairs (which are inevitable new or used).

RV Lifer · 11-13-2020, 05:13 AM

This information is extremely helpful. That being said we are out of Houston and looking at Holiday World in Houston or NIRV in Dallas for the purchase and any eventual (inevitable) service. I have read the reviews and both are a mixed bag. Anyone on here have any first hand experience with either?