Liquid spring installation- a whole new world

[jdyson]

Originally Posted by hohenwald48

Just curious, why would air brakes work any different than hydraulic brakes? The actual brakes are the same for both. Just the method of applying pressure are different. What am I missing?

as OP said, the main topic is ride and handling of LS. but to the point of this question I’ll add this link:

https://learndiesels.com/are-air-bra...an-hydraulics/

[BigMC]

Originally Posted by Jabber Jaw

Let me start by saying I know most in this group are the proud owners of Newmar "Diesel" Coaches! Yet, some of choose not to go that route, I being one of them.
So, being a proud owner of a Newmar Canyon Star "gas" coach; like everyone else; I have the desire for the best ride & drive comfort which I can attain.
I ordered my 2020 Canyon Star in July of 2019, & did "FPU" in October 2019.
Having owned a 2004 Mountain Aire "gas" coach for a short while, and through a lot of research, made decisions about improving the new coach, upon delivery.
So, I ordered 4 new Koni shocks, an Ultra-Trac rear track bar, a Saf-T-Plus front steering stabilizer, and brought them with me to Napanee. After the intial test drive, I was sure I had made the correct decision to acquire & have installed, the aforementioned products. This was happily done by Bremmen Ford, the Dealer which services all of Newmar's gas chassis'. At their recommendation, I also had them install Sumo front springs. Wow, what a difference & improvement! At that point, I was quite HAPPY!
However, these changes did not totally eliminate the "bang" of uneven bridge transitions, nor the bumpity bump of concrete expansion joints! Though better, this was not the solution I was seeking. Oh, I addressed the engine noise folks spoke of, by adding significant insulation & sound deadening material from "Dyna Mat" to the engine box & surrounding areas! Quite an improvement!
So, while attending the 2020 Tampa Super RV Show/Newmar Rally (what a show), I come upon a display from a company called "Liquid Spring", & met Wayne Wells the Vice-President. He educated me about Liquid Spring suspension & even had me drive his Tiffin "Demo"! Very impressive. But at the time they offered Liquid Spring suspension only for the rear of coach. Wayne told me the front suspension was in development and was to be released late 2020, early 2021. We also spoke of the expense, and at that time, I would not pull the trigger to have just the rear suspension installed. Later that year, the front suspension was released and available. Due to the expense, I still was reluctant.
Fast forward to September 2021. We had spent June, July, August, traveling. Visited family in Virginia, did a Virginia Wheels Rally, a Newmar Caravan, the Newmar International, then back to Florida. In October, back to Virginia for a 55th Class Reunion, & Newmar Virginia State Rally at Ameri-Camp RV Park. This constituted over 6,000 miles of travel. Much of it up & down I-95! Well, if any of you have traveled I-95, there is a portion in South Carolina that is miserable! Horrible bridge transitions, terrible expansion joints, & even some wonderful "potholes" thrown in for added driving experience. We were headed back South to Florida, my wife & I both complaining about this horrible road! I said, "You know Liquid Spring would probably eliminate about 80-90% of this"! Her reply; "I'm tired of it! If it will work, then do it"! WOW!
Upon return to Florida, I call Wayne at Liquid Spring, we discuss installation, price, etc, then the reality of 1,200+ miles each way, hotels, meals & of course the wonderful increased price of gas was going to be significant added expense! BUT, I find out a company in Orlando, JOSAM Equipment Co, located in Orlando is a Liquid Spring installer!
Only 91miles away! I contact JOSAM, we discuss price, installation etc, and I decide to pull the trigger, & spend the money! We set an appointment for installation, and I drop off the coach on Monday, November 29th. On the drive home, I'm talking about it so much, the wife tells me to calm down; boy was I anticipating this installation.
I get a call on Monday, Dec. 6th, the coach is ready. So, Tuesday, Dec. 7th (Pearl Harbor Day, a Day that will live in Infamy), we drive to Orlando to pick it up. Upon arrival, we discuss the installation, and I go for a test drive. WOW! WOW! WOW! Was it ever impressive! So, very happily, I write the check, hook up the toad, & away we go!
I will digress for a moment. All Ford F-53 chassis' have a solid axle front suspension, just as does the Kountry Star, Ventana LE, & Ventana! Since they do not have independent front suspension, none of them will ride like A Dutch Star, Mountain Aire, etc, in the Luxury Line up of Newmar! The diesel coaches do have an air-ride suspension in front, where an F-53 ford chassis has leaf springs & shocks. With Liquid Spring, this is all gone! Liquid Spring uses a silicone based fluid & cylinders (shocks) to provide the suspension movement, damping, and control!
Impressive to say the least! This system has 3 "ride" positions; SPORT, NORMAL, & COMFORT.
SPORT, will all all but eliminate any lean/roll from driveways, entrances, etc, and the cloverleaf entry/exit to Interstates. It does provide more of a sports car feel of the road, & yes a bit more of a feel to expansion joints, and bridge transitions.
NORMAL, provides a great ride, and almost totally reduces any bump from transitions, expansion joints, or other road imperfections.
COMFORT is the "BOMB"! This ride is so soft & smooth, it is like driving a pick-up truck down the road. One can drive the coach with one hand, if desired; I don't; but what ease of handling, lane changes, and just provides a fantastic ride on the road! Am I ever HAPPY!
Some other benefits. You can raise the coach 3 1/2" for driveway exits, swales, etc,. Then it can be lowered 3 1/2" for ease of entry, setting up in one's RV site. The adjustment is almost instantaneous. Turn on the ignition and 15-20 seconds, it is at ride height (has sensors just as a diesel coach does); no "airing up" time, and these adjustments can be made while moving, but at 15 MPH, automatically goes to ride height.
I have driven a Ventana, which has a nice ride, but must say, the ride of this Liquid Spring suspension is equal to, if not better than the Ventana. Nothing against the Ventana, but this suspension system is just that impressive!
OK, so you say, that's great, How much? I will preface the total amount by saying I had a front end alignment done, the front tires "trued" & rebalanced, and new inside dual valve stems installed as well! The total was right at $25,000. And No, I am not the least bit reluctant to have paid that to get the ride & handling that it has achieved! Liquid Spring factory installation may be a bit less, due to shipping expenses, but taxes must still be added. And I did not have all the travel expenses to bear. I could not make the "numbers" work, going to Indiana, nor did I have to worry about the weather.
The price differential in what I have invested in total, in this endeavor, still puts me at a price which is $56,000 less than I was quoted on a diesel Ventana, when I ordered my Canyon Star! And we know the annual maintenance cost of the gas coach is less than the diesel. And No, this is not for everyone, but for me, it was the right decision, and the wife & I are just tickled to death with this coach!
This decision/direction is not for most folks, but for us, has worked out as we wanted!
And that is why Newmar makes many different model coaches with varying drive train! As well as different levels of luxury! But, Newmar does build a fantastic coach, in my opinion!
I hope you have enjoyed reading this little "epistle", and maybe it brought some laughs as well!
MERRY CHRISTMAS!

out of interest, how much did this overall add to your GVWR compared to your Factory plated GVRW. Thanks. I am considering this on a 2022 Baystar 3401.

[Jabber Jaw]

@BigMC

Installation of Liquid Spring suspension will NOT add to your GVWR!

What does occur is a reduction of CCW....meaning how much you can carry.
The reason is the Liquid Spring suspension components add about 600# to the overall weight of the Coach.
Example: If you could previously carry 3,600#; after installation, you could only carry 3,000#

Installation did not affect me, as I still have over 1,200# of unused load carrying capacity, before approaching the rated 26,000 GVWR on my Canyon Star!

[isp4265]

I am curious.........If you go with liquid springs front and rear, is there a need for all the other suspension upgrades such as shocks, stabilizer bars, sumo springs etc. or would the liquid springs alone be good????

[Suburbazine]

Originally Posted by isp4265

I am curious.........If you go with liquid springs front and rear, is there a need for all the other suspension upgrades such as shocks, stabilizer bars, sumo springs etc. or would the liquid springs alone be good????

Liquid Springs replaces all those components, so having them would be wasted money.

[Jabber Jaw]

Originally Posted by isp4265

I am curious.........If you go with liquid springs front and rear, is there a need for all the other suspension upgrades such as shocks, stabilizer bars, sumo springs etc. or would the liquid springs alone be good????

Liquid Spring suspension is really all that's needed. BUT, adding one additional component; a Saf-T-Plus steering stabilizer, is a great asset; in that it reduces steering input from the driver, & the sometimes felt "wander" of the front wheels! Liquid Spring has a mount already made into its unit , for installation.

As to the question of other upgrades; not knowing of Liquid Spring, I had already installed Koni shocks, Ultra-Trac rear track bar, Sumo front springs, and Saf-T-Plus.
Not that it was money wasted, as I enjoyed the enhancements, until Liquid Spring was installed.

And since installation, I have supposedly Sold the components, so will recover some of the expense!

I chalk up the "expense" as part of a "learning experience"!

My opinion, were all the money $$$$$$ added together; the experience of other suspension upgrades, and adding the Liquid Spring suspension, has all been part of my RV Education!

[isp4265]

Sub and JabberJaw
Thanks for the info. I am still looking for my first RV and want to be as educated as I can to minimize costly mistakes or avoidable costs. Thanks for the response, I appreciate it.

[beckeda]

Hello, my name is David Becker. I see you are taking delivery of a new Baystar really soon and considering Liquid Springs install. I am taking delivery of a 22 Baystar 3124, factory delivery, on May 23rd. I am then heading to Liquid Springs in Lafayette, In for 4 corner install on May 31st.

So, while I wait, I am living vicariously through guys like you. Please keep updated as to your experience. Quality of craftsmanship from Newmar, stock ride quality, etc. etc.

And finally, I hope you really enjoy your new coach!

Dave

[beckeda]

I think you made the right call. I owned a 2020 Baystar Sport 2813 as my first coach. Had it for less than a year. Made all of the upgrades you could mention. Helped some but nowhere near what I was looking for. I have a 22 BS 3124 on order for May factory delivery. Heading straight to Liquid Springs for 4 corner install.

[macnut]

Anyone with Baystar and LS have the issue of the steps scraping or getting stuck when the coach is lowered? If so, what is your fix? Thanks!

[Jabber Jaw]

Originally Posted by macnut

Anyone with Baystar and LS have the issue of the steps scraping or getting stuck when the coach is lowered? If so, what is your fix? Thanks!

On my 2020 Canyon star, this can occur.
Here is my "workaround" for the issue. I have spoken with Wayne about this issue.
Set "LS" to "NORMAL" ride height. Turn "LS" system "OFF".
Then turn on and lower your levelers.

To retract, turn on Ignition,, turn "ON" LS, retract levelers.
Then set LS to normal ride height.

This will occur due to temperature cooling , causes "molecular" cooling, which decreases the molecular structure of the fluid; thus allowing the LS system to lower some.

Contact Wayne, make him aware of the issue, and he will work with you.

Allan

[macnut]

Thanks for sharing your process. Seems pretty straightforward. I assume there is no problem with storing your RV with jacks down for a month for more at a time?

Also, I reached out to Wayne about installation and he connected me with a local business who has done many LS installations. Relieved not to have to make the trek from CA to Indiana and back! I sent him an email last Friday about this so I’ll probably hear back soon. Seems great to work with.

[hjabernathy]

I had Liquid Springs installed on my 2018 Bay Star Sport in February 2022 in Tucson, AZ. I chose to have it done there to avoid the long drive to the LS factory in Indiana. We began a cross country trip to Newfoundland in April 2022 and visited the factory at the first of May to have them do the 2000 mile inspection. Here’s some things to think about as you plan a LS install.

If you go to the factory, you don’t pay the $800 freight charge to California; this might be more now in July 2022. If I’d know what I learned at the factory before planning the install, I’d have probably had it done there. I was so impressed with the factory that I think it’s worth it to seriously consider having LS installed there.

They have magnificent lifts to get your coach up in the air so that the installers work standing up rather than on their backs as they did during my install. Those lifts, of which they have multiples, coast them $40,000 each. They will do the install in 3 to 4 days because they know what they’re doing. My install took 10 days and a headache when the installer discovered differences in my coach; my frame had been extended 8” from a 208” to a 216” wheelbase. This I discovered is not uncommon. LS has arranged deals with local hotels. I didn’t ask what it would cost. Consider the $800 freight savings against the cost of fuel and lodging/meals.

The downside of having it installed at the factory is that you’d need to have your 2000 and 25000 mile inspections done at the factory. FYI - they did my 2000 mile inspection for no charge. They were efficient and found some small things that they’d have done differently. They made corrections. The entire inspection process took a little over an hour while we waited in a fine waiting room. I was super impressed seeing my 34’ coach 8’ up in the air on a fantastic lift.

I will say that LS has turned my coach from a super chore to drive into a pleasurable experience. We are currently over 5000 miles into our 13,000+ mile journey across the US from Arizona to Newfoundland where we are now. We’ll be going back across Canada to the West Coast. So far the LS has taken the beating out of driving Newfoundland roads that we experienced five years ago. No regrets having spent $26,000 which was the final bill. I think LS might beat this price also. I’d ask them.

[PetesMH]

Interesting thread. Just my personal opinion but I simply don’t see the value for us. We embraced the truck-like nature of the F-53 from our first test drive and have about 35,000 happy miles now. I enjoy driving it. Every time.