Lithium Batteries

[DawnTreader]

The Lion Energy UT 1300 Li batteries are a good Li option. They are able to be discharged (used) down to -4 F, and up to 131 F.
The just cannot be charged below 32F or above 113F. These are the ratings Lion Energy states about them. These have a lifetime warrenty (if used properly of course), and are rated to up to 3500 cycles of charging. They say they have a pretty robust BMS.
They are quite often on sale at Costco for $700 each, and when on sale are sold in pairs online for $1,399. They have a smaller footprint than the Battle Borns (nothing against Battle Born—they are fantastic batteries I am told), They also only weigh 23Lbs. each. They can be installed right side up, sideways or even upside down if necessary, and still work.

[paul65k]

Originally Posted by DawnTreader

The Lion Energy UT 1300 Li batteries are able to be discharged (used) down to -4 F, and up to 131 F.
The just cannot be charged below 32F or above 113F. These are the ratings Lion Energy states about them. These have a lifetime warrenty (if used properly of course), and are rated to up to 3500 cycles of charging. They say they have a pretty robust BMS.
They are quite often on sale at Costco for $700 each, and when on sale are sold in pairs only for $1,399. They have a smaller footprint than the Battle Borns (nothing against Battle Born—they are fantastic batteries I am told), They also only weigh 23Lbs. each. They can be installed right side up, sideways or even upside down if necessary, and still work.

I agree and have had these installed for over 2 years now with NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER!!

Factory support has been very good according to the user group, although I have not needed to use them myself.

They have a lifetime warranty or 3500 charge cycles, which equated to every day for almost 10 years or for most people this will be a lifetime of RV use

This is a picture of our installation inside the coach with 8 batteries..... we now have 10

[BCam]

Originally Posted by paul65k

C'mon guys....... this is a thread about buying a NEWMAR and whether or not to install Lithium batteries. This is not about buying the cheapest batteries out there or what is the most bang for the buck it's about a lifestyle choice!!

It is always interesting to me as a LiFePO4 user/convert/BELIEVER why people would whine about the high cost when they are looking at putting them in premium brand RV

If you want cheap....but a Coachman or some other entry-level product but when people go out of their way to buy quality and then bitch about a relatively small incremental cost to REALLY enjoy their RV....it just boggles my mind!!

Rant over

I agree. I think we're all so attuned to the typical LiFePO4 questions that we get carried away.

The only thing I would add is the question of how many Ah and to consider an adequate amount of solar as well.

[Our05Winneba]

If you can afford them - go for it!!

In our Class A - after battling my 4 new deep cycle lead-acid batteries for a couple of years (Slow to charge, quickly lost charge, often voltage dropped so low that my inverters shut down, etc.) I installed 400 Ah of Lithium batteries (2 years ago). What a game changer!!

Now I have much more usable power. These batteries charge up much faster so they work better with my solar charging, and when that is insufficient (bad weather and/or parked under trees) I do not have to run the generator as much to charge them up. They work at a higher voltage, so my inverters are happy. All told - we are now able to very comfortably boondock and go for days - weeks knowing that our batteries will support us.

[rquiri]

I just bought 2 Renogy lithiums on eBay for $400/ea + a little shipping.

I think I can install them under the bed!

[dustydave]

Solar is fantastic and another really cool thing. I love gadgets and solar is right up there on the list. I had 300 watts on my truck camper rig and it kept up great on my 12 volt fridge. It always kept the batteries topped off which is really important for FLA or AGM that will make them last for a loooonnnng time. Now with Lithium I have not added solar on my Leprechaun as of yet. I may but they charge so fast and could care less if they are not kept topped off. This makes solar not nearly as necessary. With a large converter charger you can top your batteries off extremely quickly with the generator or of course when ever you travel.

[Persistent]

Cite my sources?
They are excessive. Battery chemistry is complicated. Battery design is complicated.

The best battery manufactures test their batteries and publish the results. The life of a battery that is used and maintained according to recommendations is actually related to how much the battery has been discharged and recharged. It is not how old by the calendar that matters.

For lead acid batteries, a number of standard testing procedures have been established. Using the appropriate testing standards a number of cycles the battery is capable of can be measured. This is often used as a measure of "life".

One method often used for RV and Boat batteries is:
Fully charge for 10 hours.
Discharge to 10% state of charge
Recharge 10 hours
Continue until storage capacity drops to 80% of rated capacity.

The depth of charge during the test can be changed and the test repeated.
For instance:
Fully charge for 10 hours
Discharge to 50% SoC
Recharge 10 hours
Etc.

Most designs for RV batteries show twice as many recharge cycles for the 50% discharge test. So does that mean it has twice the "life" at 50%?

On the other hand, you must charge the battery twice as often to get the same power out. You could install twice as many batteries, but that costs twice as much and weighs twice as much.

Other concerns:

Deep draw damage:
Drawing batteries down below 10% SoC can damage the plates in flooded cell batteries. Thicker plates reduces the damage. Only drawing down to 50% leaves the plates twice as thick. Damage is less likely. Life is what happens when you are planning something else. Flat out discharges happen, but less often if you only draw down to 50%

High discharge currents.

Lead acid battery terminal voltage drops dramatically while high currents are drawn. A big inverter can pull voltage down 1 volt or more.

Inverters often have a low voltage cut off feature. If the battery is at 10% SoC the static voltage is about 11.3 volts. That is well below the typical inverter cut off. The inverter will stop working.

If the battery is at 50% the static voltage is about 12.1 volts. That is above usual cut off voltage. However, if you are running a microwave, the inverter can pull the voltage down 1 volt or more. Now the voltage is 11.1 and the inverter will cut off due to low voltage.

Keeping the battery SoC above static voltage of 12.1 will work better with a big inverter on a small battery bank.

Improper maintenance

The biggest killer of lead acid battery life is not drawing them low or flat. It is storing them discharged, or partially discharged.

Fully charge lead acid batteries 14 to 18 hours before storage. Recharge 14 hours before terminal voltage drops below 12.4 volts.

Storing discharged for 3 months can consume most or all of a lead acid battery's life.

My Plan
So as a knowledgeable technician, what should I tell an owner. Most don't care about the above explanation. I have probably already irritated you.

I choose to irritate people. Others choose to simplify to "keep the battery state of charge above 50%".

I plan to discharge my Interstate Marine AGM batteries to 30%. That leaves a significant reserve if things don't go as planned. I have no bad feelings about drawing down to 10% if I need the power.

I don't even worry about flat out discharge a few times in the battery life. AGM batteries tolerate flat out discharge much better than flooded cell batteries.

[evofxdwg]

Im following this thread since I expect my FLA's in our new coach to need replacement in 4-6 years. Im most in the dark about what is controlling the engine charging (controlling the interconnect relay between house & chassis batteries) and what is the existing algorithm.

Would be nice if folks posted their "recipe" and any issues or other relevant information, along with what energy management system, converter or inverter/charger you have, etc. Wiring sketch or diagram? Parts list?

Engine charging:
- did you add a DC-DC converter or what? If not, how do you manage alternator load? If not, how do you get a full charge on lithiums from engine.
- Does the component that connects engine and house batteries together work properly and was there a mod for that?

Energy Management System: did it work correctly after the mod?
Lithium charging: what did you install/remove, or change?
AGS: does it work OK

Incompatibilities or other relevant info?

[Persistent]

I will provide what you ask for if you start your own thread on the subject. This one has gone way off track from the OP's issue.

[Greg Hindson]

Originally Posted by calendarboy

I thought Newmar was now offering LiFePo coach batteries now. That would be the way to go on a new coach.

I asked Newmar if I could get the King Aire lithium batteries in a LA that I want to order. They told me no.

I saw the batteries in the King Air, they are a pair of 1260ah monsters and realized why they wouldn’t do it.

But I suspect, once the novelty wears off on the install in the King Air they will become an option up and down the Newmar line.

[Rev. Roy]

Originally Posted by calendarboy

I thought Newmar was now offering LiFePo coach batteries now. That would be the way to go on a new coach.

As of 2021 the only Newmar with lithium was the King Aire and I was told it was a "King Aire exclusive" and not available for any of the other Newmar lines. Yet we all know from the past what is introduced this way became available for the rest of the line within a few years. However the one they use on the King Aire is huge and, in my opinion, overkill. Like I pointed out, "just how many people paying $1M+ for a motorhome are going to regularly go Boondocking in it?"

[promaster18]

Their 100AH batteries are $100 off they also have 170AH batteries ..just make sure you have the correct charger or better still a solar system that will charge these via a controller. You can install a relay to charge these via your vehicles alternator but if your vehicle battery is Lead acid you cannot leave these both connected as the lithium battery will discharge your lead acid battery while in parrallel . I run a 300W Solar system through a charge controller with a manual switch that activates a heavy duty relay paralleling both batteries via the vehicle alternator if my lithium battery is discharged. Usually my lithium battery is fully charged at 14.3V by 9am daily . If not and I am traveling I will manually connect both via the switch and relay to top up my lithium battery while driving to the specified 14.3V. Only in oregon have I really needed to do this !since installing my third 100W monocrystalline panel. The other awesome thing about the batteries is the size and weight a 100AH battery is about 11 inches x 5 inches and 8 inches deep and weighs nothing compared to lead acid batteries .

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by Jacjetlag

..... Our demographic are not quick adopters.

You say that like it is a bad thing.

My color TV in the main cabin cost $100. It is bigger with a better picture than any CRT model I ever had at a much lower cost. Very light and only uses 30 watts of power.

Perfect for dry camping.

The reason I was not an early adopter of an LED TV is my tube TV in the house worked fine and lasted a long time. By the time I needed a new TV, they had come down in price.

I like to learn from the experience of others. I mention LED because they are an example huge improvement.

In the early 80s a younger engineer I worked bought new revolutionary model of a GM sports car before they came off the the line. I ran into him a few year later. Not a happy camper.

Maybe when I need to replace my brand new GC2, I will not buy FLA. Of course for 40 years I have researched just that option.

No, I am not one of the cool kids.

[Munterko]

I installed at qty of 4 of the $1000.000. 200 ah SOK LiFeSO4 in my 2021 4369 and I can go 4 or more days with the frig and even use the microwave. It has cold weather charging protection plus the basement is heated so no issues there. Can't go wrong with SOK. Check out Will Prowse you tube channel.
Before that my auto gen start to charge the batteries would come on every night.