Newmar Frustrated

[hohenwald48]

Like I said, RV's are what RV's are. If you don't like it then vote with your feet and find another hobby because you won't find a trouble free RV at any price. For me, for the most part, they are exactly what I expected when I made the purchase. Never for a minute did I expect my Newmar would be trouble free.

The RV business today is exactly like it was before the crash of 2007/8. That changed nothing except prices and the next crash will change nothing either.

But I still wish Newmar had better documentation.

[redbaron73]

Originally Posted by RKins

But you say that if I spend the same amount on a motorhome, my expectations should be less, just because "that's the way it is"? I say BS. .

You may not like it, but there is nothing you can do about it. This industry is not going to change until an overwhelming competitive factor forces the change.

The best way to change the industry is to "make a better wheel" and compete directly with those "doing it wrong"

Look at all the success Tesla is enjoying by revolutionizing the automotive industry. They are the model that every car manufacturer wants to be, and have soaring profits that rival any company ever known.

[FLJOE]

Originally Posted by RKins

Let's look at this from outside the RV industry: If I buy a tool from Harbor Freight (HF) for $5 I really don't expect much longevity from this product - if it breaks I might take it back or toss it. If I take it back HF will stand behind it within their warranty period. If I spend 5-10 times that amount on a Snap-on version of the tool my expectations are higher now and I expect the tool to function and I expect Snap-on to stand behind...….CUT...……...
If I buy an inexpensive car for say $15k (in some people's eyes, this might be an expensive car) I expect this thing to last through the warranty period...….CUT...…………...

So the more I spend on a product, the higher my expectations are. Imagine spending $450-500K on a 2019 Rolls Royce Phantom - what should my expectations be now? Oh you bet.

But you say that if I spend the same amount on a motorhome, my expectations should be less, just because "that's the way it is"? I say BS. This industry needs to change or...….CUT...... Whether you buy a Bay Star or a King Aire - none of these are a $5 tool from HF and people's expectations are proportional to the cost, and should be.

Making comparisons between tool quality in America, cheap cars vs high end cars, etc.....this could go on all day and the OP won't feel any better or drink the cool aid my friend.

We purchase a 40 to 43 foot chassis and engine from Newmar that they have attempted to build a house on top of. These things have all the bells and whistles, from tile floors to real toilets that grind our crap up. Then we blast down the highways and put them through basically an earthquake.

For me it isn't a mystery when something breaks, wears out, or needs adjusting.

[stutch]

Originally Posted by RKins

Let's look at this from outside the RV industry: If I buy a tool from Harbor Freight (HF) for $5 I really don't expect much longevity from this product - if it breaks I might take it back or toss it. If I take it back HF will stand behind it within their warranty period. If I spend 5-10 times that amount on a Snap-on version of the tool my expectations are higher now and I expect the tool to function and I expect Snap-on to stand behind that tool (which they do).
If I buy an inexpensive car for say $15k (in some people's eyes, this might be an expensive car) I expect this thing to last through the warranty period and that the vendor will stand behind it, which most do. You can look at the problems Chrysler had with the Jeeps lately and how they tried to shirk responsibility - so some are not great at standing behind their product.

So the more I spend on a product, the higher my expectations are. Imagine spending $450-500K on a 2019 Rolls Royce Phantom - what should my expectations be now? Oh you bet.

But you say that if I spend the same amount on a motorhome, my expectations should be less, just because "that's the way it is"? I say BS. This industry needs to change or when the bubble bursts again, like it did in 2008, people will remember how they were treated when they decide to part with their money again. I agree that Newmar (whom I like) needs to do a better job of keeping their customers and you do that by meeting their expectations, whatever it takes. The more you meet their expectations the more loyal they'll be to your brand. Remember the definition of insanity - it may only take a customer one time to boycott you versus the repeat buyers who are expecting to not have the same problems as before yet have the same problems again. It's much easier for a company to "set expectations" versus meeting a customers perceived expectations based on the cost of what they purchased. Whether you buy a Bay Star or a King Aire - none of these are a $5 tool from HF and people's expectations are proportional to the cost, and should be.

Thank you..... exactly

[stutch]

Originally Posted by hohenwald48

stutch,
Some of your points I agree with and some I don't. None of that matters. The RV industry is what the RV industry is. They build to varying levels of quality, using various quality components, engineered and assembled to varying levels of reliability.

Most of us don't like that fact but we know it's a fact regardless. You can beat your head against the wall trying to change the entire industry, accept the situation and try to make the best of it or you can find another hobby. No disrespect intended but that's just the facts. We all make our purchases based on what we are able to discern from one manufacturer or another. I don't pay a lot of attention to their marketing departments.

When I purchased a new RV (Newmar) last August, I had no illusion it would be defect free and need no repairs. Heck, when I drove it off the lot it had defects that I was aware of. I just took them in stride, repaired them and moved on to the next project. I don't expect this situation to change in my lifetime and I've found that Prevost based coaches seem to have just as many problems as other manufacturers.

I won't go so far as to say you shouldn't own an RV. That's a decision you will have to make. However, I will say that if having to DIY repair problems and deal with issues is going to cause you stress then you will simply have to get used to being stressed. Good luck and I hope things work out for you. As for me, I like my DIY hobby.

That's great but it still doesn't make it right for the "you are on your own" model once the warranty is up. Wouldn't it be nice if Newmar held their parts vendors accountable for their stated MBF (meantime between failure) specs. Changing parts on later models because they found out they installed substandard components isn't good enough.

If you think that's the way it goes, then you are doing Newmar an injustice be not holding them accountable to be a better company.

I like my choice in MHs but shocked by their lack of follow through.

Ever notice the rash of surveys you get every time you do business with everyone? There is a reason for that. It's called "satisfactory customer experience." Newmar needs to focus on that and I will help.

[RKins]

Originally Posted by FLJOE

Making comparisons between tool quality in America, cheap cars vs high end cars, etc.....this could go on all day and the OP won't feel any better or drink the cool aid my friend.

We purchase a 40 to 43 foot chassis and engine from Newmar that they have attempted to build a house on top of. These things have all the bells and whistles, from tile floors to real toilets that grind our crap up. Then we blast down the highways and put them through basically an earthquake.

For me it isn't a mystery when something breaks, wears out, or needs adjusting.

Sorry Joe, this wasn't for the OP.

This is the perception of the average American - "You get what you pay for". Now take that average perception and apply that to this average person that wanders into the RV world and wants a brand new shiny motor home. How can you expect them to even begin to fathom that everything they were accustomed to ("you get what you pay for") would not be the same in the RV industry. You "don't get what you thought you were getting (quality and support) and what you paid for" - it's an interesting conclusion and I imagine quite the shock.

[saddlesore]

Originally Posted by stutch

Examples:

Oasis Hydronic Heating Pumps: Just paid $275 for a new pump. Replaced a pump that is known to fail. No reason I can think of why the pump failed, but when the new one came, I could not believe I actually paid $275 for what seems to be a $50 part.

$275. for a pump is a bargain...


Aqua Hot mdl AHE-100-02s

[Renipladlo]

I was going to reply with a long winded comment on this whole thing, and then my conscience kicked in, and I decided to just keep my mouth shut this time. Oh, what the heck GET THIS PLEASE - MOTORHOMES (INSERT RV BY ANYONE/ANYPLACE HERE) IS AN EARTHQUAKE GOING DOWN THE ROAD! Things shake, rattle and roll, and all more and bumps and pot holes, and uneven road surfaces, the list repeats over and over again. You either accept that as a condition of ownership, or like has been suggested, maybe RV'ing is the wrong way for you to travel. However, in a hotel we stayed in recently, we found sex toys under the bed, which we did not touch, and guess what, management did NOTHING to fix the issue. So my suggestion is, maybe you should stay home.

[ptw]

Originally Posted by saddlesore

$275. for a pump is a bargain...


Aqua Hot mdl AHE-100-02s

I understand why you are saddlesore. Sorry that happened to you. $4000 for Oasis repair is a lot.

[Solo_RV_Guy]

Hi stutch-


Welcome to a world where the Magical Market Forces prevail - "we can sell everything we build" doesn't force the Invisible Hand to work differently. Remember, too, that the Invisible Hand builds (or destroys) wealth, not motorhomes.


That said, I agree with most of your concerns. The issues come from a couple of levels - factory, dealer, and owner.


The factory sends 'em out the door to meet a schedule. So long as the unit can be towed, driven or otherwise transported to the receiving dealer it's good to go. In theory the factory has sent a complete and fully functional RV and the dealer only needs to check some fit and finish items, fix any transport damage, etc. The reality is that the dealer will need to finish the assembly of the unit to some degree or another and correct badly done work before it can be delivered to the retail customer. That's overhead to the dealer and the Invisible Hand tries to cut costs whenever possible. That leaves the customer to determine what is bad enough to go back for factory service or attempt a dealer warranty repair or DIY and submit receipts for warranty reimbursement.


If RVs were sold like automobiles - with dedicated dealers and service facilities, factory trained techs, etc - things would be a lot better. The revenue base to support that would need to 100x of current RV spending, maybe more, to provide a comparable purchase and service experiences. In the mean time, any rise in sales with lower quality and lowered expectations represents more profit and no incentive to increase quality or service.


It has to start with buyers refusing to purchase products that do not meet their quality expectations and having a willingness to pay for that level of quality. Time will tell.

[saddlesore]

Originally Posted by ptw

I understand why you are saddlesore. Sorry that happened to you. $4000 for Oasis repair is a lot.

Repairs were on an Aqua Hot...Mode....l AHE 100-02s. NOT an Oasis.
Btw, the unit has 17 years worth of use so things do wear out..


And the moniker is due to 50 years & 5,501,000 miles of trucking under my butt.

[ptw]

Originally Posted by saddlesore

Repairs were on an Aqua Hot...Mode....l AHE 100-02s. NOT an Oasis.
Btw, the unit has 17 years worth of use so things do wear out..


And the moniker is due to 50 years & 5,501,000 miles of trucking under my butt.

That is a lot of miles! Surprised you would even want to drive in retirement.

Happy travels! Hope to meet you on the road someday. I am sure you have some good stories.

[saddlesore]

Originally Posted by ptw

That is a lot of miles! Surprised you would even want to drive in retirement.

Happy travels! Hope to meet you on the road someday. I am sure you have some good stories.

As for the miles... 10/14k per month adds up...
There many many lifetime career drivers that are 6 & 7 million milers.... I'm still a rookie...


Now I will be able to "stop & go see" every interesting roadside attraction That I've had to drive on by because of trucking....
And not have to be concerned with weigh scales/Ports of entry/Log books/DOT or a hundred other "hoops" that a driver is expected to jump thru just to do their job.

[VP Chianese]

Solo RV Guy wrote: "The factory sends 'em out the door to meet a schedule. So long as the unit can be towed, driven or otherwise transported to the receiving dealer it's good to go. In theory the factory has sent a complete and fully functional RV and the dealer only needs to check some fit and finish items, fix any transport damage, etc."

What you write is true for a lot of companies. But if you were to go to Newmar you would see coach's in Building 42 that did not meet final inspection and are kept there until they do. Newmar tries to not do that. I walked the final release inspection on mine with the inspector and he found way more than I did. He knew where to looks for specific problems.

Stuch wrote: "Wouldn't it be nice if Newmar held their parts vendors accountable for their stated MBF (meantime between failure) specs. Changing parts on later models because they found out they installed substandard components isn't good enough."

The problem here is that no one manufacturer in the RV business that can hold a vendor accountable. Newmar is at eight or nine units a day which comes to a little less than 2000 units a year. All eight lines do not take the same anything except for maybe wire or some other common product other wise some have one product and others have a different product. Think about just A/C units. I believe there are two different BTU units being used presently. 13 k and 15 k. Some units have three some have two. Lets call it 2.5 per unit times 2000 total units. That's five thousand total A/C units give or take a few. I don't know the mix but for S&G's let us say 2000 13 k units and 3000 15 k units. So how would you hold a vendor accountable? Go to another A/C manufacturer right? How many times can you do that? There are only three or four folks in that business. And do you think any one of them really cares about 5000 units a year? In the first place only two could probably meet the demand. The one they are using and maybe Coleman. Sure they care but not enough to redesign the units to make Newmar or even Liberty at $1.8 M per coach happy.

Folks keep getting confused with the car business. Chevrolet will not build a car that doesn't sale 200 k units a year. Don't believe that, ask the 1,800 folks at Lordstown OH. The Cruze sold 273,000 units in 2014 and 142,000 units in 2018. They closed the plant just a month ago. Harrison radiator build all of the A/C's for those cars. And if there was a problem in 2011 with the first 231 k built that year Harrison would get right on it. For three reasons, one being the 231 k units a year in this model, two being they build every radiator for every GM product period and three GM owns them.

Also we have a short memory about the car business. 60 years ago it was a lot like the RV business even building big numbers. After the war the public would take a car in a box if they could get it. If the dealer didn't do a PDI the car might not get off of the lot. So the car business isn't a shining example.