Newmar gone downhill?

[dmctlc]

Originally Posted by hohenwald48

It's been my observation that the customers who have to return to the dealer to have a light bulb replaced are usually the ones who are unhappiest with RV service and quality.

I think it's more of an unreasonable expectation issue than anything else. If you buy an RV and expect it to be like buying a new car you will be sorely disappointed. In order for an RV manufacturer to achieve the quality levels of automobile manufacturers it would likely cause the average entry level motorhome to be priced in excess of $500K and the high end units would probably be in the multi million dollar range.

I've said it a hundred times "If you can't fix 'em then don't buy 'em". Find another hobby.

I have to disagree about the cost impact to build quality into an RV. Car industry from the 70s and 80s finally learned to build quality cars, cars that last well over 100,000 miles vs. Less than 50,000 and cost didn't go astronomical. If you look at most of the recalls in the auto industry IMO are related to a failed part provided by a supplier. In what I've read over the last few years a lot of RV quality issues are manufacturing issues are directly related to the assembly/build process by the manufacturer, IMO a lot don't seemed to be supplier issues. What causes this is poor quality control and poor training along with lack of upper management oversight and commitment because management is focused on schedule which translated means better profits. I've seen in my 36 years as a firefighter as well as my 46 year in the high tech field. In high tech it took the high tech company I worked for many years ago to realize poor quality impacted customer relations and profit in the long run because of cost of rework. It took including the assemblers, etc. Involvement in quality to realize major improvements and that didn't happen overnight. In the end everyone was happy and was rewarded for process/quality improvement goals were met. Six Sigma is a major player in meeting the quality goals. How many millions of cars are sold every year and when have you heard the buyers are fixing things or cleaning up the interior or trunk because the workers left manufacturing residual in the cars or trucks. Would anyone except that and were talking any car...whether $20,000 or a $50,000 one. Yet we're expected to accept it after spending at least that or many times more than that. We shouldn't be and I'm tired of hearing the excuses, they're houses on wheels... thats what they build and everyone in the company is well aware of it. Even new homes we build and buy we don't accept it... so why do should we with RVs, JMHO... BTW I won't get into some of the quality issues we've run across with our fire trucks over the years thats a story for another day.

[Jacjetlag]

Market competition works !

A key driving force in the automotive markets during the 70's and 80's was quality. The Japanese cars were simply better, as evidenced by the average number of production and design flaws. If you get a chance, go to Japan and see for yourself how they, as a culture, take work seriously and even personally.

Back in the '60s, something "Made in Japan" was then often ridiculed as "cheap". They worked VERY hard to change that. Today the Koreans are doing the same thing. Great products are worth more money.

Back on topic....
RVs run the full spectrum pricewise. You'll get what you pay for, but sometimes you have to stand your ground as a consumer. I.E. Newmar vs. Winnebago will come out almost even, but that is subjective. Everybody has an opinion.

[Rvlegaleagle]

I have a friend who has a friend and their Father-in-law knows a guy who bought a Newmar...

[tnedator]

Originally Posted by dmctlc

I have to disagree about the cost impact to build quality into an RV. Car industry from the 70s and 80s finally learned to build quality cars, cars that last well over 100,000 miles vs. Less than 50,000 and cost didn't go astronomical. If you look at most of the recalls in the auto industry IMO are related to a failed part provided by a supplier. In what I've read over the last few years a lot of RV quality issues are manufacturing issues are directly related to the assembly/build process by the manufacturer, IMO a lot don't seemed to be supplier issues. What causes this is poor quality control and poor training along with lack of upper management oversight and commitment because management is focused on schedule which translated means better profits. I've seen in my 36 years as a firefighter as well as my 46 year in the high tech field. In high tech it took the high tech company I worked for many years ago to realize poor quality impacted customer relations and profit in the long run because of cost of rework. It took including the assemblers, etc. Involvement in quality to realize major improvements and that didn't happen overnight. In the end everyone was happy and was rewarded for process/quality improvement goals were met. Six Sigma is a major player in meeting the quality goals. How many millions of cars are sold every year and when have you heard the buyers are fixing things or cleaning up the interior or trunk because the workers left manufacturing residual in the cars or trucks. Would anyone except that and were talking any car...whether $20,000 or a $50,000 one. Yet we're expected to accept it after spending at least that or many times more than that. We shouldn't be and I'm tired of hearing the excuses, they're houses on wheels... thats what they build and everyone in the company is well aware of it. Even new homes we build and buy we don't accept it... so why do should we with RVs, JMHO... BTW I won't get into some of the quality issues we've run across with our fire trucks over the years thats a story for another day.

I've heard comparisons to the car industry many times, but I don't think they really apply. A big part of the improvement in the car industry came from automation and assembly line efficiency, including limiting differences from car to car.

The RV industry, with a few exceptions, is more like building a custom house on wheels. They have different chassis, floor plans, and many different options from on coach to the next that comes down the line. Then, with a company like Newmar, you add the ability to add specials, which further creates custom distinctions from coach to coach.

Then, leaving that part aside, you have the fact you are building a house/mobile home, that just happens to be on wheels (which further amplifies any build problems). You have to wire in outlets, breaker boxes, etc., that simply has no comparison in the auto industry, where they can engineer everything to be brainless plug and play, when automation isn't possible.

[hohenwald48]

Originally Posted by dmctlc

I have to disagree about the cost impact to build quality into an RV. Car industry from the 70s and 80s finally learned to build quality cars, cars that last well over 100,000 miles vs. Less than 50,000 and cost didn't go astronomical.

Actually, I believe if you compare auto sales prices from then and now you will see they did go up astronomically. What cost $3,000 to $4,000 in the 70's now costs in excess of $60,000 to $80,000 today. Not sure of your definition of "astronomical" price increases but that qualifies in my book.

And don't even bother comparing the costs of pickup trucks.

[PandS]

Comparing a car to a motorcoach is like comparing a rowboat to a yacht.
Cars and motorcoaches roll down the road on wheels with tires. Rowboats and yachts float and move through the water...


Beyond that, there is no comparison. -Paul

[hohenwald48]

Originally Posted by PandS

Comparing a car to a motorcoach is like comparing a rowboat to a yacht.
Cars and motorcoaches roll down the road on wheels with tires. Rowboats and yachts float and move through the water...


Beyond that, there is no comparison. -Paul

Unfortunately, those comparisons are made everyday on this forum. Mostly by new motorhome owners who expect their motorhome to not have any more issues than you would expect from a new car.

And I've had large boats too. Same experience as owning a motorhome.

[MRUSA14]

A motorhome is not a car. How many air conditioners does a car have? Auxiliary generator? Toilets? Sinks? Refrigerator? TV's? Slideouts? Awnings? I could go on and on. Just because they both have tires does not make them in any way comparable. Anyone who buys an RV thinking it will compare to a car in reliability is going to have nothing but disappointment.

[tqqest]

Originally Posted by MRUSA14

A motorhome is not a car. How many air conditioners does a car have? Auxiliary generator? Toilets? Sinks? Refrigerator? TV's? Slideouts? Awnings? I could go on and on. Just because they both have tires does not make them in any way comparable. Anyone who buys an RV thinking it will compare to a car in reliability is going to have nothing but disappointment.

Agreed, not like an automobile, more like a houseboat!

We have a shared houseboat at Lake Powell. They are built one off, same type of systems, floats instead of drives, and has many more problems than our motorhome. We have never taken it out for a full week without some issue!

[dmctlc]

I got to give some of you credit figuring out a motorhome isn't a car but my point was quality can be improved if manufacturers want to and cars that cost 3,000 or so back in the 70s don't cost 60 to 80,000 today, I know I owned one. I'd go with 50,000 perhaps but
thats a $1,000 increase a year in 50 yrs is a small price to pay for the quality we get today but it's also moreso due to foreign competition than our own car companies desire. They lost profit and sales and to survive they had to improve not because they wanted to do it. Point is it can be done if manufacturers have the right stimulus and I doubt its going cause motorhomes to double in price. I'm not new in RVs own one for over 45 yrs and a Class A for many of those so I'm not new to the game in any respect. But its thoughts that because it has more ACs than a car, has a refrigerator, slides and other parts gives the manufacturers an excuse to have poor quality whether you're spending $20,000 or $700,000 or much more is one of the reason it continues. So let's ask would a house be more compatible especially a new one. Would you pluck down $500,000 on a house and accept subpar quality. HVACs that don't work, roof that leaks, sewers that back up. Perhaps some might and decide to "fix" it themselves. Sorry but it's those that make excuses for the manufacturers poor quality is why it doesn't improve much if at all. I, for one, don't mind fixing very minor items but when I buy new or even used most issues is on the manufacturer and/or the dealer to fix. It's just some are better than others, JMO. IMO the OP didn't post on this forum to here that its acceptable to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a coach and accept it should have all the issues his buddy is having. I felt he was trying to get honest inputs like some provided that had good luck with their coaches and others not such good luck and maybe get some insight on how they handled it. I've seen the same on other forums like Tiffin, Winnebago, FR, etc..

[PaulTNaples]

Let’s clarify a little bit. No an RV is not a car. In fact each RV is a “bespoke” unit. Yes there are commonalities. Such as AC, generators, TV’s, sinks, toilets, cabinetry, etc. The “bespoke” part is in the assembly of the disparate parts associated with the Coach. Layouts, specials all come into play. Take wiring for example. Each coach is laid out and wired by 1 or 2 individuals. There is no standard way of wiring. No bundles, no diagrams. It’s why it’s a plate of spaghetti whenever you look behind a wall, dash etc. It is common to almost, if not all manufacturers. Is it optimal, no it is not. The trade off would be paying 750k plus for a DutchStar. Does anyone want that coach at that price point? No, most likely not. We buy as a choice. If you’ve done your homework you already know your buying a rolling earthquake. Maintenance is expensive. Upgrades are added along the way to suit the individual owners. If you’re handy you do some things yourself. You pay for the more complicated things that you’re not comfortable doing yourself. In my experience it’s the quality of the owner more often than not, that determines happiness in this, our chosen lifestyle. That’s not to say that there are build issues, warranty issues, etc, that are exceptions. There are, but the majority are “happy campers”.

[Roy-c]

I see all of the posts that keep comparing an RV to a Car and agree that is an apples to oranges comparison. That being said there is no excuse for poor assembly practices by even more poorly trained employees and a complete lack of Quality Control on the part of a manufacturer. Many of the issues with a new RV of any brand or price range are directly due to poor construction procedures and no QC. And we aren't even getting into terrible warranty service and a lack of repair parts availability. ( parts seem to be there to build more new RV's but not to repair those already sold and still under warranty ) Manufacturers have the ability to pull the franchise of a dealer that doesn't perform to a standard but they don't. This won't change until people stop buying and putting up with poor quality and even worse after the sale customer service.

[brynwood]

What everyone has missed is the car manufacturer has taken the human input out of production. Used to be every car was basically hand built (i.e. motorhomes?), now very sophisticated robots build the cars.It will probably never happen in the RV industry.

[ByeTheWay]

I very satisfied with Newmar's service and parts.