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12-05-2015, 05:47 PM
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#505
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Senior Member
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom chelbana
I think you will find both Tiffin and Entegra in the same or even higher over loads. Newmar has a problem with front axle but it is almost across all the OEM.
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Just don't think that is true for Entegra...this thread has generated a similar thread on the Entegra forum...haven't seen any report overweight on the steer. Second time this has been stated or inferred. Again, Entegra had some weight issues in 2013 which they rectified. Since that time, I have heard of none, but welcome some specifics either here or on that forum. Can't speak to Tiffin.
__________________
Dave and Beth
2015 Cornerstone 45J
2020 Ford F-150 Lariat
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12-05-2015, 05:56 PM
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#506
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club Spartan Chassis
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: ON THE ROAD...SOMEWHERE
Posts: 6,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSL417
Just don't think that is true for Entegra...this thread has generated a similar thread on the Entegra forum...haven't seen any report overweight on the steer. Second time this has been stated or inferred. Again, Entegra had some weight issues in 2013 which they rectified. Since that time, I have heard of none, but welcome some specifics either here or on that forum. Can't speak to Tiffin.
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I think part of the reason is that EC stuck with 4 slides instead of bring FWSs to the customer. The Newmar NON-FWS models (especially pre-2016) are in much better shape compared to the FWS models.
__________________
Don, Sandee & GSD Zeus. Guardian GSDs Gunny (7/11/15) & Thor (5/5/15)
2006 2015 DSDP 4320 4369, FL Chassis, 2013 CR-V 2020 Jeep Overland, Blue Ox Avail, SMI AF1.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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12-05-2015, 07:48 PM
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#507
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Senior Member
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky_Boss
I think part of the reason is that EC stuck with 4 slides instead of bring FWSs to the customer. The Newmar NON-FWS models (especially pre-2016) are in much better shape compared to the FWS models.
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Don,
They didn't go with the FWS after prototyping last year, supposedly because they questioned the long term strength and engineering...then they cancelled the orders. If I remember correctly, the issue was with the 2013 Aspires that they had installed some leftover ordered IFS front ends and that put them over...but, having CRS, I don't remember for sure. They did something and the front end rated out higher. I'm not aware of it having any impact on resales, and quite honestly, the 13 Aspires with IFS are kinda sought after now, as a used coach. So hopefully, Newmar will find a solution that results in similar (as opposed to impacting long term resales).
I know you're the market, so hopefully this will all work itself out; if it were me though; I'd wait for the 17 models or the fix before ordering.
__________________
Dave and Beth
2015 Cornerstone 45J
2020 Ford F-150 Lariat
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12-05-2015, 09:02 PM
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#508
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ & Plover, WI
Posts: 6,403
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Even though your MH likely meets DOT regs at 75/25 the MH would do even better closer to the 2/3 and 1/3 weight distribution. I prefer greater margin on stopping distance.
If it were my MH I would get it closer to 70/30 and better stopping distance. YMMV[/QUOTE]
In the real world, I doubt that one could measure the difference in stopping distance between a 75/25 ratio and 67/33 on the chance I will have to make an emergency stop. For me, I would rather have a 1000# safety margin all of the time on the steer axle and tires. But, that's just me.
__________________
2006 Monaco Executive 44 Denali
2013 43 QGP Allegro Bus ( SOLD )
2013 Avalanche
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12-06-2015, 12:47 AM
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#509
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky_Boss
I think part of the reason is that EC stuck with 4 slides instead of bring FWSs to the customer. The Newmar NON-FWS models (especially pre-2016) are in much better shape compared to the FWS models.
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In October 2915 DW and I looked at a 2015 Anthem 44F, the model with full side plus residential refrigerator and kitchen located up front just behind drivers seat. I can't imagine that the 44F floor plan didn't max the left front axle weight especially with the fridge loaded.
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12-06-2015, 04:05 AM
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#510
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Registered User
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Mooresville IN
Posts: 230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr
Based on a very casual count of who has decided to cancel their Newmar order or was considering Newmar and are now looking elsewhere, this issue has already cost them a few $M in sales. I wonder how much it's going to take to get them to listen......
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I bet not. They continue to make (and therfore have sold) 50 units/week. Delivery times may have decreased and that may actually bring in customers who were put off by the long delivery times. It may have put the dealers and the ocassional management person who actually talks to a customer in some awkward positions, but my guess is the accountants remain happy.
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12-06-2015, 04:21 AM
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#511
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Polk City, FL
Posts: 3,368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom chelbana
I think you will find both Tiffin and Entegra in the same or even higher over loads. Newmar has a problem with front axle but it is almost across all the OEM.
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That's not a factual statement on the Entegras, certainly not "higher loads"......quote your source!
The 2013s had some issues with loading and Entegra worked with the owners to solve the problem. I'm not saying they have thousands of extra capacity in the front. Most of the loaded Entegras RVs I have seen numbers on have at least 700-800 lbs capacity on the front. I don't know if those Freightliner DS RVs have heavier frames or more house built on the front end than the Spartans. I think the weight distribution is wrong.
__________________
Dave & Debbie
2021 Newmar DutchStar 4369
2016 Ford Edge&2019 Ford F-150 toads
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12-06-2015, 06:04 AM
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#512
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Senior Member
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,358
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For me...
I think that with our timing I am still going with the 2016, but probably Entegra or American Coach. House is on the market and my final decision will be made once we have a firm contract on the house. So my first choice is still the DS4369 and that is based on floor plan and price, but they need to solve the weight issue and I don't mean by adding a portioning valve.
Funny, we have been waiting to see the early results on the new design of the DS for 2016 as they started to be delivered. However, we never dreamed that it would be such a disaster Right now it looks like Newmar has managed to kill one of the top selling models in their range. Again, so said.
Very disappointed, but glad we waited.
Rg
Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSL417
Don,
They didn't go with the FWS after prototyping last year, supposedly because they questioned the long term strength and engineering...then they cancelled the orders. If I remember correctly, the issue was with the 2013 Aspires that they had installed some leftover ordered IFS front ends and that put them over...but, having CRS, I don't remember for sure. They did something and the front end rated out higher. I'm not aware of it having any impact on resales, and quite honestly, the 13 Aspires with IFS are kinda sought after now, as a used coach. So hopefully, Newmar will find a solution that results in similar (as opposed to impacting long term resales).
I know you're the market, so hopefully this will all work itself out; if it were me though; I'd wait for the 17 models or the fix before ordering.
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__________________
Jim & Clatie
2017 Anthem 44A, 2014 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, Blue Ox Avail, M&G Braking
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12-06-2015, 06:38 AM
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#513
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club Spartan Chassis
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: ON THE ROAD...SOMEWHERE
Posts: 6,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capoward
In October 2915 DW and I looked at a 2015 Anthem 44F, the model with full side plus residential refrigerator and kitchen located up front just behind drivers seat. I can't imagine that the 44F floor plan didn't max the left front axle weight especially with the fridge loaded.
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I do stand corrected. I had concentrated our search of EC 42' models I hadn't noticed the 44F with the FWS. I also see the Aspire 39E had one too.
__________________
Don, Sandee & GSD Zeus. Guardian GSDs Gunny (7/11/15) & Thor (5/5/15)
2006 2015 DSDP 4320 4369, FL Chassis, 2013 CR-V 2020 Jeep Overland, Blue Ox Avail, SMI AF1.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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12-06-2015, 06:46 AM
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#514
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Posts: 4,215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr
Between Newmar "fudging" the numbers, their TPO roof on their gas rigs, AND the fact that I'm just not in love with any of their floor plans in the length coach I'm looking for, I'm back to my statement earlier of writing these guys off and looking elsewhere.
Based on a very casual count of who has decided to cancel their Newmar order or was considering Newmar and are now looking elsewhere, this issue has already cost them a few $M in sales. I wonder how much it's going to take to get them to listen......
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FlyFishinRVr, I agree with most of what you've stated above, but since Newmar is currently maxed out in building capacity, and every coach they are making is either pre-sold to a dealer on spec, or to a private buyer through a dealer, I would submit that they HAVEN'T lost any $ is sales! It's just that the INFORMED buyers are looking elsewhere now! JMHO
__________________
Scot & Laura Kellersberger, U.S. Army (ret)
Newmar 4 wheel drive Dutch Star 3891, SOLD
Now RV'ing on the water in a Trawler!
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12-06-2015, 07:10 AM
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#515
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club Spartan Chassis
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: ON THE ROAD...SOMEWHERE
Posts: 6,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSL417
Don,
They didn't go with the FWS after prototyping last year, supposedly because they questioned the long term strength and engineering....
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My main point on FWS vs Non-FWS was the weight and balance issues but I do sometimes think the coaches had to be highly/over engineered to support FWS. Anyway...the FWSs put a lot of the slide weight in front of the drive axle while the non-FWS take some of that weight off the front and actually reduce the front axle weight by transferring it to a point behind the drive axle.
Newmar (as well as a few other brands) have pushed the envelope without really considering "useful" CCC. I don't expect any brand to engineer a coach that can use all the CCC without maxing out an axle. To do so would be pretty difficult and probably require floor plans that just don't make functional sense.
With DPs having such long wheel bases it could be possible to actually reduce the the WB a bit and help move some of the weight behind the drive wheels but then folks won't like the impact on basement storage. So, to retain floor plans like the 4369 the final answer would probably be customers paying more for upgraded suspension/chassis.
As to Sandee and I being "in the market", we have and will always be in the used market and had our sights set on the 2014-2015 DSDP 4369 when they start to rolling onto the market at prices in our range. I will need to double my research on those model years to see if they aren't too nose heavy. Our alternate has been the EC 42RBQ but their resale price has been fairly high.
Anyway, one thing we do know is what we have ain't shabby either. LOL We may have just crossed over the second major depreciation with our coach reaching the 10 year mark. But we do now we have a good coach with a few things we would change if we find the right replacement. Until the price and timing works out we will just wait and see what shakes out.
__________________
Don, Sandee & GSD Zeus. Guardian GSDs Gunny (7/11/15) & Thor (5/5/15)
2006 2015 DSDP 4320 4369, FL Chassis, 2013 CR-V 2020 Jeep Overland, Blue Ox Avail, SMI AF1.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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12-06-2015, 07:58 AM
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#516
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Senior Member
Thor Owners Club Newmar Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: FL
Posts: 1,286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powercat_ras
It sure looks to me as an engineer that the root cause was shifting weight forward in the coach in multiple ways to accomodate the requirement that the 2015-2016 DS have 15,000 lb. gross weight / 1,500 lb. tongue wt. capacity and still have enough weight on the front axle to be stable in the worst case with empty tanks and storage and weight of one driver in the front.
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How about we leave the 2015's out of this. My 2015 DS 4369 FWS does not have a front axle weight problem. I'm fully loaded full timer and still have room for about 1,700# on the front and 7,500# overall. This was with full fuel and water, empty gray and black.
The problem started on the 2016 with the new slide and full tile not to mention the extra heavy chassis.
It is no wonder that I can't get a room at a Holiday Inn Express. They must be over booked with RV chassis weight engineers.
My guess is Newmar will solve the problems as others have in the past or will in the future. If not my 2015 will be worth a lot more money when Don buys it.
BTW trucks are over loaded every day. If you don't believe that just look at the weight stations. The trailers that are parked there aren't there because they broke down they are there because they need to be off loaded to meet the weight limits.
__________________
Vinny, Sandy, JD (10.01.13 - 06.20.20) and our present Portuguese Water Dog "Viking"
2016 Dutch Star 4018 Newmar #605899
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12-06-2015, 09:06 AM
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#517
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crasher
In the real world, I doubt that one could measure the difference in stopping distance between a 75/25 ratio and 67/33 on the chance I will have to make an emergency stop. For me, I would rather have a 1000# safety margin all of the time on the steer axle and tires. But, that's just me.
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If you can measure a difference on the track there will be a difference in the real world albeit that difference will be influenced by driver response time vs professional driver for test. As we get older we need all the stopping advantage we can get imo.
REMEMBER: All of the maximum weights shown above already include the 10 percent scale tolerance.
http://www.flhsmv.gov/fhp/cve/2013TruckingManual.pdf
Florida does not care about collecting fines when 20,000 lb truck axles are weighed and found to be 22,000 lbs. They obviously do not view the 10% over weight axle condition a safety issue.
The sky will not fall for minor deviations in axle over load.
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12-06-2015, 09:56 AM
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#518
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dandandan
[SIZE=2]
The sky will not fall for minor deviations in axle over load
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Amen! Manufacturers don't post limits at hard numbers. If they did, they would be fighting lawsuits on a daily basis.
If 20,000# were a hard limit and it failed at 19,999#, they would be liable.
MTBF will be shortened, but 1 extra pound won't snap the axle.
__________________
---
2016 Newmar Ventana LE 4002
2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited - Blue Ox Aladdin
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