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Old 07-02-2022, 09:10 PM   #1
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Replacing encoder or motor on Full Wall Slide of 2019 Ventana 4369

This is going to be a lengthy post, but please bear with me.

About a week ago, I went to retract my FWS, but only the front part of the slide moved.

Called Newmar to put me in touch with KIB, who manufactures the control boards for the slide outs on my coach.

After diagnosing with KIB, it was determined that voltages are OK, the control board is OK, the motors are OK, the gearboxes are OK, so the only thing left is a problem with the encoder on the rear motor.

Newmar does not sell the encoder by itself. They only sell a complete assembly comprised of Motor, Gearbox & Encoder (we'll call this the Motor from now on). See picture below. We'll talk about the sleeve a little later.

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The 2019 Ventana 4369 has 2 of these motors on the FWS, one towards the front of the coach and one towards the rear.

Each motor is connected to a separate shaft. On the ends of each shaft, there is a cog wheel which engages with the underside of the slide out.

So, the FWS has 2 motors, 2 shafts, 4 cog wheels and 1 electronic control board.

Newmar quoted me just over $1,860 for one motor. (installation not included)

Using a bore-scope type camera, I was able to see the make and model of the encoder (see below) and got a price from the manufacturer of the encoder of $175.

Make: Automation Direct
Model: TRD-NH100-RZWD

I have not ordered the motor yet, but I did order and have received the encoder.

I will try to replace the encoder first, and if that doesn't work, then I will order the motor from Newmar.

In order to replace the encoder, I must first remove the motor, which is turning out to be much more difficult than expected.

Despite reading almost every post talking about slide outs, I didn't find any which described how to remove the motor. A number of posts talked about the TransTorque Bushings which connect the motor to the shaft and how difficult they are to disconnect.

The TransTorque Bushing looks like this:

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Keep in mind that this is my own terminology. I couldn't find official names for the components.

The 3 pc. clamp does not stay on the shaft as shown in the picture, but I pasted it in so you have an idea of how it all fits together on the shaft.

The 3 pc. clamp looks like this and you have to manually place each of the 3 pieces into the nut before assembling the bushing. Orientation is important.

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The fully assembled TransTorque Bushing looks like this:

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You will need a 1.5 inch open box wrench to unscrew the nut. The nut is torqued to 145 ft/lbs. It will be very difficult to get it started, so watch your knuckles. I came across many posts that talked about right handed threads and left handed threads, but you unscrew the nut just like any other, turn counter-clockwise as you are looking at the motor along the shaft, over the bushing. You will find that once the nut breaks free, it will only turn about 1/8th of a turn. Don't force it. The Wedge has been tightened onto the shaft for so long, that it is "stuck" to it. Once you get the 1/8th of a turn, use a hammer and bang on the sleeve, all the way around if you can. This will help release the wedge from the shaft. I also used an anti seize liquid which I sprayed between the Nut and the 3 pc. clamp, which I believe helped. The process took me about 45 minutes before the Nut was fully unscrewed: bang with hammer, apply pressure with wrench, repeat. You don't want to force the nut because the Wedge may break. Once the nut is loose, it will look like this:

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The nut should freely slide along the shaft and you should be able to pull the pieces of the 3 pc. clamp out of the sleeve . . .

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revealing the Wedge.

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The wedge should move freely along the shaft.

At this point the motor is no longer connected to the shaft. The sleeve is connected to the gears inside the gearbox, so if you were to power up the motor and have it turn, the sleeve would turn, but the shaft won't.

The shaft goes straight through the sleeve and through the gearbox exiting through the other side of the gearbox.

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On the other side of the gearbox, there is another TransTorque Bushing and the cog wheel. In the picture below, I combined 2 separate pictures so you can better understand what the whole system looks line.

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This is as far as I have gotten so far.

I have some questions for the group, if anyone has done this before, or if a Newmar tech happens to see this post.

It appears to me that the motor has to slide along the shaft in order to remove it.

1. What is the next step?
2. Do I have to disconnect the second TransTorque Bushing?
3. Do I have to remove the cog wheel and associated bearings?

I will continue to add to this post as I make progress.
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Old 07-03-2022, 08:42 AM   #2
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Ok ; I've never seen this set up but , here's my take on your situation and of course questions .
Questions;
1.The second cog wheel is out of frame to the right of you combined photo: Correct ?
2, The shaft is one piece , from the second trans torque bushing ( that's not yet disconnected ) , through the gear box to the second cog wheel . Correct ?

3, Is the plate ; with the four bolts holding it to the gear box ; bolted or welded to the frame above it ?

4. Is there room , behind the second cog wheel , for the shaft to slide through?
If so how much room ?
5. Shaft from second trans torque bushing through the front cog wheel , appears to have very little room for movement through the wheel ; is that the case ?

From your pictures and my understanding of the set up so far .

The second TT bushing has to be removed , the stub shaft slid forward through the front cog wheel ; as far as possible ; hopefully to clear the end of the main shaft .
The plate with the mount bolts to the gear box , , unbolted from the frame and the gear box ; if the main shaft cannot slide through the second cog wheel to the point where the motor will slide off the main shaft; then that cog wheel will have to be unbolted from the frame ; and that will allow enough movement of the main shaft to get the motor to a position where the motor and gear box will slide off .

JMHO: This slide drive system appears to have been designed by a committee of engineers ; intent on driving mechanics and owners to distraction , while attempting repairs .

I'm going to down load your photos so I can blow them up to check for any details I may have missed .
I'll attach this pdf , from another member on the TT bushings , detailing his struggles on their removal.
I'll post again if a closer look at the photos brings up any more questions .
Attached Files
File Type: pdf trantorque coupling (1).pdf (1.50 MB, 12 views)
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Old 07-03-2022, 08:59 AM   #3
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I'm back !

Second thought , all my first post was about issues with replacing the motor/gear box .

If you're only replacing the encoder; as you already have the gear box loose from the main shaft ; by loosening the first trans torque bushing ; can't you unbolt the gear box from the mount plate and slide it forward on the shaft , then rotate it to the point where you can change the encoder , without further dismantling of the drive assembly.

Just work on replacing the encoder while the gear box hangs from the shaft ?
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Old 07-03-2022, 09:08 AM   #4
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Did you receive any pdf's from KIB on diagnosis of the control board and encoder ?

Sharing that info could save other members time in getting to the point of replacing the encoder , rather than a control board or a complete assembly .
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Old 07-03-2022, 10:42 AM   #5
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I came across the attached slightly dated 38 page slide out guide. Not sure if it will help, but there are some diagrams of the assembly.

SS2011SlideOuts.pdf
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Old 07-03-2022, 05:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip426 View Post



Just work on replacing the encoder while the gear box hangs from the shaft ?
Skip, that makes perfect sense. In the slideout bolt fix using studs, it was determined there was no need to remove the motor from the shaft to install the studs and "motor side" washers and nuts...just slide it back to do the work. Seems this would be no different.

IIRC, the Newmar instructions for cog systems requires taking the weight of the slide off the cogs if one is going to completely disassemble the system to remove the motor, but maybe I'm confused.

Great pictures so far of the full assembly components. This coming week I plan to do the slide bolt fix and these pictures and descriptions really help. :-)
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Old 07-04-2022, 07:56 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip426 View Post
Ok ; I've never seen this set up but , here's my take on your situation and of course questions .
Questions;
1.The second cog wheel is out of frame to the right of you combined photo: Correct ?
2, The shaft is one piece , from the second trans torque bushing ( that's not yet disconnected ) , through the gear box to the second cog wheel . Correct ?

3, Is the plate ; with the four bolts holding it to the gear box ; bolted or welded to the frame above it ?

4. Is there room , behind the second cog wheel , for the shaft to slide through?
If so how much room ?
5. Shaft from second trans torque bushing through the front cog wheel , appears to have very little room for movement through the wheel ; is that the case ?

From your pictures and my understanding of the set up so far .

The second TT bushing has to be removed , the stub shaft slid forward through the front cog wheel ; as far as possible ; hopefully to clear the end of the main shaft .
The plate with the mount bolts to the gear box , , unbolted from the frame and the gear box ; if the main shaft cannot slide through the second cog wheel to the point where the motor will slide off the main shaft; then that cog wheel will have to be unbolted from the frame ; and that will allow enough movement of the main shaft to get the motor to a position where the motor and gear box will slide off .

JMHO: This slide drive system appears to have been designed by a committee of engineers ; intent on driving mechanics and owners to distraction , while attempting repairs .

I'm going to down load your photos so I can blow them up to check for any details I may have missed .
I'll attach this pdf , from another member on the TT bushings , detailing his struggles on their removal.
I'll post again if a closer look at the photos brings up any more questions .
Hi Skip 426. Thank you for your help. The following are answers to your questions.

1.The second cog wheel is out of frame to the right of your combined photo: Correct? YES

2. The shaft is one piece , from the second trans torque bushing ( that's not yet disconnected), through the gear box to the second cog wheel . Correct? SEE UPDATED PICTURE BELOW. FROM THE MOTOR TOWARDS THE REAR OF THE COACH, THE SHAFT GOES THROUGH THE BASEMENT COMPARTMENT WALL BETWEEN THE ELECTRIC BAY AND THE WET BAY. IN THE WET BAY THERE IS ANOTHER TT BUSHING. AT THE FAR RIGHT OF THE WET BAY IS A COUPLING OF SOME SORT. (SEE SECOND PICTURE BELOW. THIS IS NOT A TT BUSHING, DOES NOT HAVE A KEYWAY, THE SHAFT IS ROUND AND DOES'T HAVE A FLAT GROUND ON IT, AND DOES NOT APEAR TO BE WELDED. THERE ARE NO SET SCREWS VISIBLE FROM THE FRONT, TOP OR BOTTOM OF THE COUPLING, BUT FEELING AROUND THE BACK I FELT A SMALL INDENTATION WHICH COULD BE EITHER A SET SCREW OR A PIN. A SET SCREW OR A PIN WOULD NOT MAKE SENSE SINCE NEWMAR USED THE TT BUSHING EVERYWHERE ELSE AND I DON'T BELIEVE THAT A SET SCREW OR A PIN COULD WITHSTAND THE TORQUE WITHOUT SHEARING THE PIN OR SLIPPING ON THE SET SCREW.

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3. Is the plate with the four bolts holding it to the gear box, bolted or welded to the frame above it? YES. THE PLATE IS WELDED TO THE FRAME AND THE MOTOR IS BOLTED TO THE PLATE USING THE 4 BOLTS. BECAUSE OF THIS, THE MOTOR HAS TO BE REMOVED BY MOVING ALONG THE SHAFT TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE RIG (TO THE LEFT AS YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE PICTURE)

4. Is there room behind the second cog wheel for the shaft to slide through?
If so how much room? NO

5. Shaft from second trans torque bushing through the front cog wheel, appears to have very little room for movement through the wheel. Is that the case? YES. FROM THE END OF THE SHAFT TO THE NEAREST OBSTACLE IS ABOUT 4 INCHES.

This is what I will try next. Since my first objective is to replace the encoder, I will remove the 4 bolts holding the motor to the welded bracket, slide the motor to the left, to the center of the Oasis bay and try to rotate it enough to gain access to the encoder. If this works, then I won't have to remove the motor from the shaft.

Wish me luck.
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Old 07-04-2022, 08:15 AM   #8
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Good luck

Three trans torque bushings on one shaft .

I'm guessing , that there MIGHT be enough end play between the front cog drive shaft ,the rear cog drive shaft, to separate all the TT bushings , and move the rear shaft out of the wet bay TT housing and deflect the main shaft and slide it to the rear far enough to drop the motor off the shaft .

Hope you don't have to test that theory .

BTW. It's the Forth of July , take the day off and enjoy .
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Old 07-04-2022, 08:23 AM   #9
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A second thought ; I always have them.

Any chance your unknown coupling is an internally splined housing , and the shaft to the wet bay TT bushing is splined into it with a set screw to keep it the two pieces from rattling ?

That would be a big help , if you only needed a couple of inches of end play in the shafts to get them apart.
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Old 07-05-2022, 07:04 AM   #10
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Quote:
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Did you receive any pdf's from KIB on diagnosis of the control board and encoder ?

Sharing that info could save other members time in getting to the point of replacing the encoder , rather than a control board or a complete assembly .
The manual for the KIB DSC100 control board can be found at the link below. This board is used for slide outs which have 2 motors.

https://newpar.newmarcorp.com/instan...1KIBDSC100.pdf

Also, here is a picture showing a summary of how to teach the board new soft stop points.

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As far as diagnosing a problem is concerned, after reading the manual and understanding all safety warnings, try any or all of the following:

1. Place the board in program mode.

2. Try to move each of the 2 motors together by pushing the buttons on the board, either extending or retracting the slide out. If both motors turn, then the motors are OK.

3. If one or both of the motors turn, but the shaft doesn't turn, check for missing teeth on the cog wheels, or for broken gears inside the gear box.

4. The board controls two motors. Each motor is plugged into the board, one on the left side of the board and one on the right. Switch the two connectors (left to right and right to left) and see if the problem remains with the same motor or if it switches to the other motor. If the problem remains with the same motor, then the board is probably OK. If the problem switches to the other motor, then there may be a problem with the control board.

5. If the motors and the shafts turn, try teaching the board new soft stop points. If the new soft points hold and you can move the slide out from inside the coach, then you are done and everything works fine. If the new soft stop points do not hold or have no effect, then your problem may be the encoder.

This is what worked for me.

WARNING ! ! ! You can do a lot of damage if you run only one motor. If you run the motors in your testing, you must run both at the same time. You could run one motor just to see if it turns, but only for a second or so.
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Old 07-05-2022, 08:40 AM   #11
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traveller333 ; thanks for posting the programing & testing link .

This is the kind of detailed info that can be a huge help to others who encounter issues with their FWS drive system .

I hope the encoder replacement is the cure for your issue . and you don't have to get involved with separating shafts for a motor replacement .
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Old 07-06-2022, 05:46 PM   #12
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The saga continues. I was able to remove the existing encoder, but the motor remains on the shaft.

After removing the 4 bolts holding the motor to the frame plate, the motor rotated around the shaft and brought the encoder closer and easier to get to.

I also noticed that there is a spacer plate between the bolts and the frame plate. I'm not sure what purpose this spacer plate serves, other than as a spacer because the bolts are too long. The same thing could have been achieved by using a washer or by using shorter bolts. The bolts go through the spacer plate, through the frame plate and into the threaded gearbox mounting holes.

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As the motor rotates around the shaft, the encoder will hit the frame plate, so hold the motor as you remove the last bolt, so the encoder doesn't hit too hard. I wanted to reduce the possibility of damaging the shaft that the encoder was attached to. I used a prop to hold the motor & encoder slightly away from the frame plate, while I worked on removing the encoder.

Notice the gap in the bottom of the frame plate. I looks like the motor and the shaft drop down somehow. I will try to figure that out if the new encoder does not fix the problem.

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Once the motor rotated, it was not too difficult to remove the 2 slotted screws which attaches the encoder to the body of the gear box, but removing the 2 setscrews connecting the encoder to the encoder shaft was much more difficult. I had to use a bore scope type camera to see where the setscrews were and then try to get a tiny allen wrench in and unscrew them.

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The encoder shaft has 2 keyways cut into it. The two set screws on the encoder are positioned so that they fit into these 2 keyways.

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You want to be very gentle when handling the encoder. It contains a glass scale which can break if handled too rough. This glass scale has evenly spaced microscopic lines etched into it. As the encoder shaft rotates, a photo-electronic reading head counts the number of lines and reports the position to the control board. The dual motor control board then compares the position of motor #1 to the position of motor #2 and makes sure that both motors move the slide out evenly.

The next step was to see how the encoder was wired to the control board. The pig tail that the encoder comes with was coiled and zip tied to the motor. I cut the zip tie and followed the wire to a connector directly above the motor.

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The next step is to remove the wires from the old encoder and connect the wires from the new encoder. I'm thinking that it would be easier to just cut the old wires outside of the connector and then connect the new wires there, rather than removing the wires from the plug and inserting the new wires into the plug. I will make that decision once I take a closer look at the plug . . . in a day or so . . .

I will post again once I rewire and reinstall the new encoder.
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Old 07-06-2022, 06:06 PM   #13
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Thanks watching and very interested in your project
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Old 07-06-2022, 06:13 PM   #14
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traveller333 ; does the new encoder have " bullet " wire ends with three splines sticking out ?

If it does you need one of these connector tools to remove the old wiring from the multiple connector.
I bought this one in Canada , but I'm sure I saw them at Harbor Freight and NAPA in the US.
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