Right to Repair Movement

[turbopilot]

Everyone who owns a Newmar should follow the development of the Right to Repair movement.

This issue is gaining strength with legislation pending now in 17 states. This issue hits squarely on the cost and convenience of ownership of Newmar products. As many know Newmar is withholding valuable service documentation from their customers and customer hired agents. Without that documentation the customer is forced to deal with the Newmar dealer network which we all know is increasingly over subscribed, far apart and under staffed. Warranty cost aside, without documentation for these coaches it is very hard to hire third party repair specialists to service these coaches. Electrical documentation is the area of most concern, but it also applies to general coach drawings for component placement and service guidance.

If you own a Newmar this issue is important.

[BFlinn181]

I read the linked article twice looking for any mention of the RV industry, must of missed it. Is your Newmar model so integrated that you're having issues? It seems to point to simplification, not computer controlled integration of everything. I've not seen the need for central controllers to turn lights on or off or dim them. Putting such systems in a vehicle that bounces and wallows down the road is just asking for problems in my mind.

As has been demonstrated in the computer industry over the years, when system architecture is open source, the original engineers don't get properly compensated for their designs. Microsoft lost their hold on PCs when they were reverse engineered, Apple experimented with open architecture for a short time, they lost so much ground they quickly shut the door to keep the OS private again. These are large companies with millions of units sold. The RV industry is much smaller and would have a lot more to lose if all their designs and programs were shared with any shop that wanted them. In addition I wonder how many shops would hire the technicians and have the equipment to deal with maybe 5 units a month that needed such repairs?

I think the "Right to Repair" movement might work for autos, smartphones, and other products sold in much larger numbers, but TVs are pretty ubiquitous and how many TV repair shops are there any more?

RVs are in much smaller distribution, any shop that sets up to do repairs can seldom limit themselves to one brand, let alone the types of repairs they do.

[turbopilot]

Originally Posted by BFlinn181

I think the "Right to Repair" movement might work for autos, smartphones, and other products sold in much larger numbers, but TVs are pretty ubiquitous and how many TV repair shops are there any more?

RVs are in much smaller distribution, any shop that sets up to do repairs can seldom limit themselves to one brand, let alone the types of repairs they do.

You might want to take a closer look at the 2018 King Aire, Essex and New Aire. Microprocessor heaven. Same issues in John Deere tractors and airplanes. Many companies are using advanced technology to create walled gardens for obvious economic reasons. Apple is doing it big time.

[Finance]

This issue has been in the news for some time, usually with emphasis on confidential computer code in controls. I don't see it as black and white, if a maker is forced to publish that it just speeds the cycle of intellectual property theft by imitators. I'm okay with a manufacturer having some black boxes in a design. As long as consumers have a choice and it's not a black box sold by a monopoly.

[nothermark]

FWIW Microsoft never had a lock on PC hardware. It did belong to IBM at the beginning but they open sourced the design specifications so there would be competition. That was why we had multiple hardware vendors supplying PC's. Multiple OS's were around at the beginning. It happened that Microsoft got in the lead for the OS and then successfully back stabbed the competition for years. I still cannot buy a computer from a retail dealer without a Windows license even though I run Linux on my new boxes. The hardware never belonged to Microsoft and probably never will.

[turbopilot]

Originally Posted by Finance

As long as consumers have a choice and it's not a black box sold by a monopoly.

Your 200 miles from the nearest Newmar dealer with a major electrical problem. You find a capable repair technician but there is no documentation. That is the issue for Newmar owners.

The last 4 airplanes I owned had an SD card in the luggage compartment containing full owner's manual, parts manual, maintenance manual and electrical schematic diagrams.

The same type SD card should be in every Newmar with the very same documentation.

[BFlinn181]

Originally Posted by nothermark

FWIW Microsoft never had a lock on PC hardware. It did belong to IBM at the beginning but they open sourced the design specifications so there would be competition. That was why we had multiple hardware vendors supplying PC's. Multiple OS's were around at the beginning. It happened that Microsoft got in the lead for the OS and then successfully back stabbed the competition for years. I still cannot buy a computer from a retail dealer without a Windows license even though I run Linux on my new boxes. The hardware never belonged to Microsoft and probably never will.

You are correct, I was distracted as I was writing. It was IBM that tried to keep the lid on PC hardware. Microsoft bought the DOS from Seattle Computer Products and immediately put their name on it and sold it to IBM and many other 8086 chipped computers.

[nothermark]

After reading the article I don't see why you are targeting Newmar. It seems to apply to the whole industry. Few manufacturers supply drawing or specifications. So few than I wonder how many actually have them in parts of their RV's. Particularly in the towables.

As for the electronics in RV's I almost wish I was not retired. I would love to tell somebody that the MH he spent a half million on 6 years ago is now obsolete so his new tablet OS won't load the programs he needs to talk to his MH.

[jvalich]

Originally Posted by nothermark

After reading the article I don't see why you are targeting Newmar. It seems to apply to the whole industry. Few manufacturers supply drawing or specifications. So few than I wonder how many actually have them in parts of their RV's. Particularly in the towables.

As for the electronics in RV's I almost wish I was not retired. I would love to tell somebody that the MH he spent a half million on 6 years ago is now obsolete so his new tablet OS won't load the programs he needs to talk to his MH.

That was the exact point of a thread I started after I came home from the Tampa Super RV show.... whatever happened to the "KISS" principle. In 5 -7 years when that touch panel that controls everything in the coach from the blinds to the slides to the environmental controls goes bad and needs replacement, how much other stuff will need to be changed out or upgraded because of software and firmware incompatibilities? That $300 touch panel could end up costing $4k to get it to talk to the coach! A year is an eternity in the electronics industry.

[tmandoug1]

If they gave you the electrical schematic and the coach was not wired exactly like the drawning..............get my point?

[Stuart W]

I went through a wiring issue, on my 4369 I had wires that were run different then two other units in dealer inventory. When I called Newmar, I was told that Newmar uses ‘free wiring’ , this means that at the discretion of the installer they are free to change locations asked on options. In my case I had two yellow 110 Wires that could be seen while laying on the sofa. As I said the other units had no wires in this location. How do you draw wire diagrams with this method?

[Algoma]

I had 4 wiring diagrams supplied with my coach. One of them showed the breaker box installed in the rear bedroom closet. Turns out that production decided to ignore the drawing and put the breaker box in the kitchen! With "free wiring" like that it makes any idea of engineering drawings pointless.

[Dav L]

As someone who worked for an OE, and as an avid DIY'r....don't expect the electrical ecosystem of any future RV to get "simpler". Consumers will demand advanced features that will drive the complexity up. Features like "autonomous driving" where you can put the future "cruise control" on and join the party or take a nap while getting to your destination. Many on this forum will disagree...but the future majority will want it and will pay for it.

To achieve these features a communication buss (CAN) is required to make it realistic for the multiple modules to talk to each other. This is old school technology in autos. Current "state of the art" in RVs. It makes it efficient to manufacturer. Less wires, less weight, less cost, but more "complexity".

We cannot argue that the complex vehicles of today are much more reliable than the carbureted "dumb" cars of the past. But they do require a more technically advanced diagnostician to understand what devices do what and when. Embedded diagnostics and Scan Tools certainly makes the troubleshooting easier.

The fact that the RV industry adopted an open communication protocol (RV-C) is a Way bigger step towards "Right to Repair". Only "OBDII" that was government mandated forced auto manufacturers to approach commonality on some of the key data attributes that contribute towards emissions. But there still is "Enhanced data" (data that is manufacturer specific but openly discussed, and "Proprietary data" (data that the OEM keeps closed but for the key suppliers that need to know).

Not seeing anything much on an RV that one can't fix on their own. The smaller scale of sales forces the RV OEs to standardize things. No economics of scale to go proprietary. Not enough vehicles to pay for that ER&D (Engineering Research and Development).

[turbopilot]

Originally Posted by Algoma

I had 4 wiring diagrams supplied with my coach. One of them showed the breaker box installed in the rear bedroom closet. Turns out that production decided to ignore the drawing and put the breaker box in the kitchen! With "free wiring" like that it makes any idea of engineering drawings pointless.

Free wiring is a new term to me in manufacturing. If they want to do it that way the solution is simple. Document the change when the work is done and include it with the coach documentation along with the standard diagrams (wiring not "free")