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08-03-2021, 09:20 PM
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#407
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Registered User
Newmar Owners Club Ford Super Duty Owner Freightliner Owners Club Retired Fire Service RVer's
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Rosemary Farm, Northern Ca
Posts: 5,444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoMaNo
no idea... just reporting my whole story here hoping someone finds value... I'll list the part number(s) and info once I get the details.
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I can’t think of any air hose associated with the DEF or DPF systems.
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08-03-2021, 09:23 PM
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#408
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Registered User
Newmar Owners Club Ford Super Duty Owner Freightliner Owners Club Retired Fire Service RVer's
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Rosemary Farm, Northern Ca
Posts: 5,444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator
What warning light (Spartan chassis Ventana) indicates the Def head issue, that's going to start the spiral towards derate?
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The amber CEL that is an outline of an engine, the same amber CEL but with “check” or “check engine” in the middle, and the red CEL. Basically you have a lot of malfunction indicators that relate to or report on the system. When you get any “check engine” indicator it is essential to access the codes and proceed with whatever information that provides.
There isn’t one specific CEL or MIL dedicated to the DEF system and any one , or combination of them may indicate you’re headed to derate. Often it starts with an amber CEL and progresses to a red after so many miles or ignition cycles, or extended idling or even adding fuel. But if you get a red CEL/MIL you have more significant problems and are more likely headed to derate.
My guess is that this really doesn’t help much but it’s really all about the codes.
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08-03-2021, 11:12 PM
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#409
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 2,548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.Wold
The amber CEL that is an outline of an engine, the same amber CEL but with “check” or “check engine” in the middle, and the red CEL. Basically you have a lot of malfunction indicators that relate to or report on the system. When you get any “check engine” indicator it is essential to access the codes and proceed with whatever information that provides.
There isn’t one specific CEL or MIL dedicated to the DEF system and any one , or combination of them may indicate you’re headed to derate. Often it starts with an amber CEL and progresses to a red after so many miles or ignition cycles, or extended idling or even adding fuel. But if you get a red CEL/MIL you have more significant problems and are more likely headed to derate.
My guess is that this really doesn’t help much but it’s really all about the codes.
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Do the codes require a code reader or Cummins laptop, or are details provided in the digital readout in instrument console?
__________________
2019 VTDP 4369 (Spartan)
Wrangler JLU / AF1 Braking / Rock Hard Bumper
2018 Thor ACE 30.3
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08-04-2021, 07:13 AM
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#410
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Registered User
Newmar Owners Club Ford Super Duty Owner Freightliner Owners Club Retired Fire Service RVer's
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Rosemary Farm, Northern Ca
Posts: 5,444
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Spartan owners.....?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator
Do the codes require a code reader or Cummins laptop, or are details provided in the digital readout in instrument console?
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The Spartan owners here can do a better job of explaining this, but you should be able to access the codes with your dash display (what Freightliner calls a “light bar”) or “message center” and cursor through your codes. This might help:
https://www.rvtechlibrary.com/chassi...age_center.pdf
Beyond that there are a variety of code reading methods from the least expensive J1939 readers to a laptop with Insite. Nexas makes good quality hand held for a reasonable cost- I haven’t used it but it gets high praise here.
NexLink NL102 Heavy Duty And OBD/EOBD+CAN Diagnostic Tool
I use OTR diagnostics and I’m happy with the product (blue tooth J1939 adapter and my ipad as a display) but it also requires a $600/year subscription which I’m not so happy about. On the plus side it does forced regens easily, has a couple levels of emissions reset commands, complete code reading and history, detailed library of what the codes mean and what to do about them. and nice real time monitoring.
https://otrperformance.com/collectio...ostics-cummins
It is essential though that you can access, decipher, and understand the codes because there are strategies that you can utilize to get the most travel distance before derate, and you want to be armed with as much knowledge as possible about what is going on if you have to take it to a shop. Just responding to a CEL or MIL leaves you at the mercy of the shops and the abjectly pathetic design of these systems. And of course they don’t tell you these things when you buy the coach.
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08-04-2021, 08:17 AM
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#411
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Registered User
Newmar Owners Club Ford Super Duty Owner Freightliner Owners Club Retired Fire Service RVer's
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Rosemary Farm, Northern Ca
Posts: 5,444
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You should also read this thread (and a few other DEF related threads here) for strategies on getting the most miles out of your rig before it derates if and when you have this issue:
https://www.irv2.com/forums/f278/new...ue-544904.html
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08-04-2021, 01:09 PM
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#412
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Spartan Chassis
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 577
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As indicated the SPN and FMI info is available on the 2 line multifunction display for Analog dash Spartan owners.
Here is a pic from my 2019 Spartan Ventana.
You scroll through the fault codes that are active one at a time (if multiple of them).
- Richard
__________________
Richard & Denise
2019 VTDP 4310 K2
2019 Expedition, Nighthawk & AF1
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08-04-2021, 04:08 PM
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#413
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 2,548
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Thanks guys, I've used the display to get things like temp, turbo boost, etc., but haven't had any faults to review. Although, in the image above, looks like even just certain conditions like ignition on, engine not running (I assume that's what I'm seeing), will create a fault condition for seeing how they are displayed on dash.
Thanks guys.
R.wold I have read about how the derate escalates and will make sure I'm well versed before my upcoming trip (heading to Napannee in a few weeks). I definitely wanted to make sure I was clear on when that clock starts ticking.
__________________
2019 VTDP 4369 (Spartan)
Wrangler JLU / AF1 Braking / Rock Hard Bumper
2018 Thor ACE 30.3
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08-04-2021, 10:42 PM
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#414
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: WA
Posts: 531
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Just a follow up. I went to Freightliner today for a Cummins engine recall. While there I asked about getting a DEF head to carry as insurance. The shop was very kind and went through the system computer. There are 5 DEF heads in the country. They are made by FL and carry a FL part number. They are $1050 plus tax shipping etc.
They service center told me that they replace a "good" number of them on tractors and coaches.
__________________
Mahdi & Debbie
2021 Mountain Aire 4551
Spartan K3 Chassis
2020 Tahoe LT
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08-05-2021, 04:05 AM
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#415
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahdi
Just a follow up. I went to Freightliner today for a Cummins engine recall. While there I asked about getting a DEF head to carry as insurance. The shop was very kind and went through the system computer. There are 5 DEF heads in the country. They are made by FL and carry a FL part number. They are $1050 plus tax shipping etc.
They service center told me that they replace a "good" number of them on tractors and coaches.
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That’s a little concerning. It wasn’t long ago someone here reported there were 20 available throughout the US. So does that mean FL DEF headers are soon to be in the same state of unavailability as the Shaw DEF heads? Or, does FL have the capability to manuf their headers to meet demand?
__________________
2021 DSDP 4326 Freightliner
2023 Winnebago ERA 70A
2005 KSDP 3910 Spartan
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08-05-2021, 05:21 AM
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#416
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Spartan Chassis
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator
Thanks guys, I've used the display to get things like temp, turbo boost, etc., but haven't had any faults to review. Although, in the image above, looks like even just certain conditions like ignition on, engine not running (I assume that's what I'm seeing), will create a fault condition for seeing how they are displayed on dash.
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The ECM keeps a log of all faults seen and any that are still active can be viewed from the dash even when the engine isn’t running like in my picture above.
The DEF head failure faults will stay active until a new DEF head is installed. After that some folks have cleared the faults by restarting 5 times (but don’t short cycle) or as in my case the Tech used the Cummins Insight Software to clear them.
- Richard
__________________
Richard & Denise
2019 VTDP 4310 K2
2019 Expedition, Nighthawk & AF1
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08-05-2021, 05:36 AM
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#417
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Senior Member
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SW FL
Posts: 31,569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sramer
Anyone know on the low end what DEF Urea% percentage will sets a code and turns on the dash light.
I have a Bluefire and it is reading 32% from the ECM. I also have a Refractometer and I siphoned a little DEF out of the tank and it reads the same.
On another note I covered the rear of the DEF tank with radiant heat barrier so I'll see if it makes a difference.
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How old is the DEF in the tank and at what temperature has it been stored in? If it's a Shaw DEF head, and the fluid is a year old, I wouldn't take the chance. I lost a DEF head due to old DEF. I bought a refractometer after the fact. 32% is probably fine, but I do not believe a Shaw DEF head can take any variance, JME after having two fail.
__________________
Chuck in SW FL
Digital 2021 Cornerstone "B"
A "Digital" 2019 Cornerstone "B" Traded
A "Classic" 2014 Anthem 42 RBQ---Sold
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08-05-2021, 09:27 AM
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#418
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 198
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I would think that, for ~$600, that the Shaw DEF quality sensor is accurate when it's working. This means a reasonable strategy would be to check the DEF before putting in the tank if possible, if not, check quality right after filling as reported by Shaw sensor and then check the quality as reported by the Shaw sensor every few months if not traveling. More often in high heat.
As I understand the problem the electronics are inside the tank, embedded in epoxy. As the tank heats up ammonia gas forms. This gas attacks the epoxy, exposing the electronics to the DEF liquid and causing them the fail. Not claiming these are the facts, just my current understanding...
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08-05-2021, 10:51 PM
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#419
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: WA
Posts: 531
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Freightliner DEf heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCRET
That’s a little concerning. It wasn’t long ago someone here reported there were 20 available throughout the US. So does that mean FL DEF headers are soon to be in the same state of unavailability as the Shaw DEF heads? Or, does FL have the capability to manuf their headers to meet demand?
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They did tell me I could buy a DEF tank with the sensors in it. He did not tell me how many there are though because that was around $1400 plus tax shipping etc.
He told me that FL makes their own DEF heads. He indicated that in a derate situation they can get the change made and get me back on the road within a week. But to simply purchase it is 45 days.
__________________
Mahdi & Debbie
2021 Mountain Aire 4551
Spartan K3 Chassis
2020 Tahoe LT
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08-07-2021, 02:39 AM
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#420
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 2,548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Star Don
Here's some more good info on a DEF failure, from a rally......
So you get a dreaded Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) Fault Code? What are you going to do? Having just completed a big rally, this was perhaps the most asked question. There are lots of rumors floating around out there that need to be debunked, but I’m not going to do that. Instead, let me pass on the FACTS that I’ve learned.
Shaw is in their 7th generation of DEF sensors, and so far, they seem to be working, but Gen 4, 5, & 6, not so much. The sensors are federally mandated, and our engines will de-rate down to “limp mode” of 5 mph when they fail. The only work-around is replacement of the DEF Head Sensor. The sensor is built into the unit, but the sensor itself can be replaced…and not have to do the whole thing. DEF is a pretty stable substance until it exceeds 125°F, whereupon it begins to release ammonia, an extremely corrosive substance. Unfortunately, that can severely decrease the service life of the sensor. That single sensor monitor’s three different values and can generate three different fault codes:
SPN#3364 – FMI9 DEF QUALITY
SPN#3031 – FMI9 DEF TEMPERATURE
SPN#1761 – FMI9 DEF TANK VOLUME
So when the DEF light turns on indicating a problem, NOTHING happens for the first hour…you just have a warning…but know the clock is ticking. After the first hour, the engine de-rates by 25% for the next two hours. You probably won’t even notice a decrease in performance at 25%. At the fourth hour, however, the Engine Control Module (ECM) will de-rate the engine by 40%, and again, you probably won’t notice that unless you’re traveling in some pretty hefty hills. After the 40% de-rate, the ECM goes into the 5 mph “LIMP MODE.” Now in a 40% de-rate, you can run INDEFINITELY, unless one of these 3 things occur:
1. You idle for more than one hour;
2. You turn off the engine;
3. You fill your diesel WITHOUT also filling your DEF fluid. The ECM Looks for that!
If any of those three conditions occur, your engine will de-rate to the 5mph LIMP MODE. Of course, if you get the SPN#1761 – FMI9 DEF TANK VOLUME, you cannot recover from that and it goes into LIMP MODE. So to continue traveling under these conditions, DON’T LET ONE OF THOSE 3 CONDITIONS OCCUR! Keep going! If you need to fill up, LEAVE THE ENGINE RUNNING….AND…fill your DEF TANK too. Keep driving until you land somewhere safe where you can have the problem addressed safely.
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A couple questions.
1. Is the clock only running when the engine is? Let's say as you are exiting highway for RV park when you get the warning light, and 20 minutes later you are parked and shut down for the night. Next morning are you in limp mode or are you only 20 minutes into first hour?
2.. does the dash info panel tell you when you've been 25% derated, etc?
__________________
2019 VTDP 4369 (Spartan)
Wrangler JLU / AF1 Braking / Rock Hard Bumper
2018 Thor ACE 30.3
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