weigh it before you buy it

[tbbg II]

If you are getting a new coach or a used coach, get it weighed before you sign the check. I simply cannot emphasize this too strongly. Here is why I think it is necessary:

I bought a year 2000 Londonaire about three years ago. I knew a little of Newmar’s reputation (mostly from this site). I also knew the Londonaire was the top of the line when it was built. I trusted Newmar to build a good coach and more importantly, a safe coach. I am long longer as convinced. In fact, I am sure this one rolled off the line unfit for the service for which it was intended.

Here are some facts: I had the coach weighed at Spartan Chassis the week prior to the Hoots rally. The coach weighed 39,900#. The GVWR is 43,700#, so no issue with total weight. The coach was overweight on the front axel and Spartan adjusted the tag to compensate. But after all the adjustments, the front axel still weighed 13,900 pounds, unoccupied. The front GAWR is 13,700#. The drive axel weighed 19,200# (GAWR 20,000#) the tag weighed 6,450# (GAWR 10000#). Taking more weight off the tag (which will also lower the weight on the front) is not practical.

I spoke with Mr. Ron Stichter, Newmar engineering VP, at the Hoot’s rally last month and told him the coach was overweight after he had assured everyone in attendance Newmar has the highest commitment to safety when designing and building their coaches. He instructed me to contact Newmar customer service. I did, that day. At that time I learned the front/back and port/starboard weights of the coach. Newmar’s records state the front axel weighed 13,180# when it left the factory. OK, so they left 500# that could be loaded on the front axel, or only 7% of the nearly 7000# CCC. I told customer service that was not enough to allow for the safe operation of the coach. The CS guy said he would need to get more information before he could respond to that. He did call back the next day stating all I needed was to rearrange the cargo to get weight off the front axel. I stated much of what is listed below and he said he would contact engineering and get back with me. Less than a week after this conversation, I sent a letter to Mr. Stichter with my concerns.

While I have not heard from Mr. Stichter (his letter was delivered more than two weeks ago), I did get a call from CS today restating all I needed to do is empty the water tanks and rearrange the cargo to keep the weight below the GAWR. Really? Why have water tanks if I can’t haul water in them safely? He also stated I could further adjust the weight on the tag. Probably not as the drive axel (at Spartan) had 95% of its GAWR. The tag had been reduced as far as it reasonably could (65% of its GAWR). The drive axel acts a fulcrum, so adding weight to the tag via ride height would also transfer weight to the front. Regardless, it is impossible to not exceed the front GAWR. Here’s why:

The driver and passenger sit in front of the front axel. This cantilever will multiply their weight that bears on the front axel. Even if one uses the 308# someone stated is standard (Newmar CS told me 500# is what they assume for passengers), the front axel is nearly at the limit with no water, no food and no cargo. Since all the water and the entire basement cargo is in front of the rear wheels, some of that weight will transfer to the front axel. The refrigerator and kitchen are in front of the drive axel, so anything added there will also increase the weight on the front axel. In fact, most of the storage on the bus is in front of the center of gravity. Most of the weight placed in front of the center of gravity will transfer to the front axel. In fact, the only storage behind the rear axel is the clothes closet. So regardless of where I put those groceries or that folding chair, arguably the coach will not be safe to drive. The weights obtained from Spartan substantiate this. We had utilized less than 40% of the CCC (2750# of 7000#). Of that, 75% (2000# of 2750#) was being carried by the rear axels and already the front axel was beyond the safe limit. We (obviously) had very little cargo in the forward compartments and the front GAWR was exceeded, unoccupied. Oh, the CS representative also stated Newmar has no idea what may have been done to the coach since it was built. Now, that is true. It is also totally beside the point.

Now, I realize that some people may be bashing Newmar when some of the blame may be found while looking in a mirror. But in this case Ron or one of his engineers must have known these simple static weight calculations when the bus was built. I explained enough of it in the letter I sent that they certainly know it now. But their best advice is to empty the water tank? Believe me, if that would work, I would do it. If this is the best their engineering team can offer, then we may all be in trouble.

I have gotten some good advice from this forum, so if you have something other than “lawyer up”, please post.

In the meantime, get that new coach weighed so you don’t find yourself in a situation like this.

[Steve Ownby]

Originally Posted by tbbg II

If you are getting a new coach or a used coach, get it weighed before you sign the check. I simply cannot emphasize this too strongly. Here is why I think it is necessary:

I bought a year 2000 Londonaire about three years ago. I knew a little of Newmar’s reputation (mostly from this site). I also knew the Londonaire was the top of the line when it was built. I trusted Newmar to build a good coach and more importantly, a safe coach. I am long longer as convinced. In fact, I am sure this one rolled off the line unfit for the service for which it was intended.

Here are some facts: I had the coach weighed at Spartan Chassis the week prior to the Hoots rally. The coach weighed 39,900#. The GVWR is 43,700#, so no issue with total weight. The coach was overweight on the front axel and Spartan adjusted the tag to compensate. But after all the adjustments, the front axel still weighed 13,900 pounds, unoccupied. The front GAWR is 13,700#. The drive axel weighed 19,200# (GAWR 20,000#) the tag weighed 6,450# (GAWR 10000#). Taking more weight off the tag (which will also lower the weight on the front) is not practical.

I spoke with Mr. Ron Stichter, Newmar engineering VP, at the Hoot’s rally last month and told him the coach was overweight after he had assured everyone in attendance Newmar has the highest commitment to safety when designing and building their coaches. He instructed me to contact Newmar customer service. I did, that day. At that time I learned the front/back and port/starboard weights of the coach. Newmar’s records state the front axel weighed 13,180# when it left the factory. OK, so they left 500# that could be loaded on the front axel, or only 7% of the nearly 7000# CCC. I told customer service that was not enough to allow for the safe operation of the coach. The CS guy said he would need to get more information before he could respond to that. He did call back the next day stating all I needed was to rearrange the cargo to get weight off the front axel. I stated much of what is listed below and he said he would contact engineering and get back with me. Less than a week after this conversation, I sent a letter to Mr. Stichter with my concerns.

While I have not heard from Mr. Stichter (his letter was delivered more than two weeks ago), I did get a call from CS today restating all I needed to do is empty the water tanks and rearrange the cargo to keep the weight below the GAWR. Really? Why have water tanks if I can’t haul water in them safely? He also stated I could further adjust the weight on the tag. Probably not as the drive axel (at Spartan) had 95% of its GAWR. The tag had been reduced as far as it reasonably could (65% of its GAWR). The drive axel acts a fulcrum, so adding weight to the tag via ride height would also transfer weight to the front. Regardless, it is impossible to not exceed the front GAWR. Here’s why:

The driver and passenger sit in front of the front axel. This cantilever will multiply their weight that bears on the front axel. Even if one uses the 308# someone stated is standard (Newmar CS told me 500# is what they assume for passengers), the front axel is nearly at the limit with no water, no food and no cargo. Since all the water and the entire basement cargo is in front of the rear wheels, some of that weight will transfer to the front axel. The refrigerator and kitchen are in front of the drive axel, so anything added there will also increase the weight on the front axel. In fact, most of the storage on the bus is in front of the center of gravity. Most of the weight placed in front of the center of gravity will transfer to the front axel. In fact, the only storage behind the rear axel is the clothes closet. So regardless of where I put those groceries or that folding chair, arguably the coach will not be safe to drive. The weights obtained from Spartan substantiate this. We had utilized less than 40% of the CCC (2750# of 7000#). Of that, 75% (2000# of 2750#) was being carried by the rear axels and already the front axel was beyond the safe limit. We (obviously) had very little cargo in the forward compartments and the front GAWR was exceeded, unoccupied. Oh, the CS representative also stated Newmar has no idea what may have been done to the coach since it was built. Now, that is true. It is also totally beside the point.

Now, I realize that some people may be bashing Newmar when some of the blame may be found while looking in a mirror. But in this case Ron or one of his engineers must have known these simple static weight calculations when the bus was built. I explained enough of it in the letter I sent that they certainly know it now. But their best advice is to empty the water tank? Believe me, if that would work, I would do it. If this is the best their engineering team can offer, then we may all be in trouble.

I have gotten some good advice from this forum, so if you have something other than “lawyer up”, please post.

In the meantime, get that new coach weighed so you don’t find yourself in a situation like this.

I would take a different approach. Newmar or Spartan are not going to do anything about your coach. I would ask them if the steer axle and drive axle could be rated higher. I know that many times the axles are rated at a level by the coach/chassis builder but the same axle carries a higher rating from the manufacturer. They might be able to give you a letter giving your axles a higher rating.


Steve Ownby
Full time since '07

[twojayhawks]

Your advise to weigh first is sound and I agree with the extreme emphasis. I have no little to add so I won't waste too much of your time. I have owned three pushers in the last 20 yrs and I have yet to have one with "great gobs" of capacity. My 02 Safari had a 20K drive and empty it was 19,700 on the rear. My 95 Bounder just had almost no room on either axle. I simply adjusted the tire pressure to make sure the tires were not the weak link. I'm new to this forum but I have been a student on another one for about 12 years. I can't recall ever hearing of a issue with a failure due to being over weight- I know no consolation there. Every mfg has been guilty of under estimating finished weight. Hopefully you can find a workable solution where you can enjoy that beautiful coach.

[newmarpusher]

I can't speak for Newmar's design criteria 15-16 years ago, but my 2015 40' TAG Ventana is very much UNDER capacity. So at least in my case, they've improved.

My axle ratings are:

Front 14,000
Drive 20,000
Tag 10,000

Actual weights with full fuel, water, cargo and 2 passengers are:

Front 11,800
Rear 16,400
Tag 7,200

I'd be hard pressed to overload any of my axles.

[C.Martin]

Adjusting the tag does not change the center of gravity...it only distributes more weight to the drive axle...and has an underwhelming effect on the steer axles. Only moving mass aft inside your camper will have any real effect. Since you are way away from your combined gross vehicle weight..,you may have to pull a car trailer with a water tank mounted up front. It would allow you to not ferry water inside the rv..,but on the trailer...up to the rated tongue weight. Having more tongue weight on your hitch may help the front axle weight. As long as the trailer behaves well with a heavy tongue weight...some do not.

Wish it were an easy fix...

I think I'm feeling fortunate to have opted for a 40ft Ventana...and my wife didn't want a dishwasher, advantium, or outdoor TV. I may actually be able to sit in the drivers seat without over grossing the front axle....

[TC51D]

Originally Posted by twojayhawks

Your advise to weigh first is sound and I agree with the extreme emphasis. I have no little to add so I won't waste too much of your time. I have owned three pushers in the last 20 yrs and I have yet to have one with "great gobs" of capacity. My 02 Safari had a 20K drive and empty it was 19,700 on the rear. My 95 Bounder just had almost no room on either axle. I simply adjusted the tire pressure to make sure the tires were not the weak link. I'm new to this forum but I have been a student on another one for about 12 years. I can't recall ever hearing of a issue with a failure due to being over weight- I know no consolation there. Every mfg has been guilty of under estimating finished weight. Hopefully you can find a workable solution where you can enjoy that beautiful coach.

But if you do have an accident do to a failure of the front end the manufacture will have an out and say YOU the owner overloaded the front end therefore We are NOT liable. So this is a very real problem if something were to happen. I can't believe they have been coaches this long and can't get the balance correct given how long the wheel base is on any of these coaches. Sound to me all they have to do is move the drive and tag axles forward about 6 inches or so.

[Mr_D]

When we ordered our 2002 DSDP I wasn't worried about it's capacity as the spec's showed a NCC of 5,300#'s. We didn't order the real tile floor, nor the washer/dryer combo and had two walls and two pocket doors deleted. At delivery I found that we had 663#'s of CCC and ALL of that was on the rear axle. In fact it was 50#'s overweight on the front if I fill the propane and fuel tank BEFORE we loaded the rig or even got aboard ourselves.
After some back and forth with Newmar and an evaluation at Henderson's Newmar offered to replace the standard 12,000# axle with a 13,200# unit. Doing some investigating I found that that axle only had a 45° wheel cut and the 12,000# had a 50°. I then protested that I needed the full 50° to get into my storage spot. Spartan told me to request the 14,600# axle as it was 52° or better and Newmar agreed.
Had to drive the rig to Spartan but Newmar paid the fuel both ways (State Lemon law required that).
While at Spartan they looked it over and stated the rear axle was a 20,000# unit and there was no reason for Newmar to have derated it to 19,000#'s.
So, I picked up 2,600#'s on the front axle (after I upgraded the front tires) as well as another 1,000#'s on the rear.
As to the OP's problem, well, Newmar will probably not do anything after 15 years.

[Hookum]

Originally Posted by twojayhawks

Your advise to weigh first is sound and I agree with the extreme emphasis. "" I can't recall ever hearing of a issue with a failure due to being over weight-"" I know no consolation there. Every mfg has been guilty of under estimating finished weight.

Think back to BlueBird. They had several fatal front end failures and resulting lawsuits contributed to their demise. They knew about it and worked at increasing the axle capacity from 16K to 18K to 20K with corresponding higher capacity tires in trying to keep them legal.

It is a ongoing problem fueled by competition for putting more and more systems, marble floors, granite counter tops, two toilets, 4 sinks, dishwasher, trash compactor, 23cf refrig. etc. into the coaches. Add 600hp to move 54K up a hill and we get what we have. Overloaded in all areas.

To then sell it, they have to fudge the numbers. Most buyers will never catch on. What is even worse, they give us 400 cu ft of storage and we think that having everything with us, in case we need it, is the best policy.

Friends, we just got to be careful out there.

[tbbg II]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

When we ordered our 2002 DSDP I wasn't worried about it's capacity as the spec's showed a NCC of 5,300#'s. We didn't order the real tile floor, nor the washer/dryer combo and had two walls and two pocket doors deleted. At delivery I found that we had 663#'s of CCC and ALL of that was on the rear axle. In fact it was 50#'s overweight on the front if I fill the propane and fuel tank BEFORE we loaded the rig or even got aboard ourselves.
After some back and forth with Newmar and an evaluation at Henderson's Newmar offered to replace the standard 12,000# axle with a 13,200# unit. Doing some investigating I found that that axle only had a 45° wheel cut and the 12,000# had a 50°. I then protested that I needed the full 50° to get into my storage spot. Spartan told me to request the 14,600# axle as it was 52° or better and Newmar agreed.
Had to drive the rig to Spartan but Newmar paid the fuel both ways (State Lemon law required that).
While at Spartan they looked it over and stated the rear axle was a 20,000# unit and there was no reason for Newmar to have derated it to 19,000#'s.
So, I picked up 2,600#'s on the front axle (after I upgraded the front tires) as well as another 1,000#'s on the rear.
As to the OP's problem, well, Newmar will probably not do anything after 15 years.

Was the new axel your idea or Newmar's?

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by tbbg II

Was the new axel your idea or Newmar's?

Theirs after I started questioning the weights and mentioned it being unsafe. BTW, this all transpired within the warranty period, not many years later and we were the original owners too.

[Gordon Dewald]

I have heard of several manufacturers having issues with the front end.

Our Tour has a heavier front axle as a mandatory option on the build sheet.

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by Hookum

Think back to BlueBird. They had several fatal front end failures and resulting lawsuits contributed to their demise. They knew about it and worked at increasing the axle capacity from 16K to 18K to 20K with corresponding higher capacity tires in trying to keep them legal.

It is a ongoing problem fueled by competition for putting more and more systems, marble floors, granite counter tops, two toilets, 4 sinks, dishwasher, trash compactor, 23cf refrig. etc. into the coaches. Add 600hp to move 54K up a hill and we get what we have. Overloaded in all areas.

To then sell it, they have to fudge the numbers. Most buyers will never catch on. What is even worse, they give us 400 cu ft of storage and we think that having everything with us, in case we need it, is the best policy.

Friends, we just got to be careful out there.

The Magna is well under it's GVWR of 57,000#'s even when fully loaded and the tires are no where near capacity either.

[Sky_Boss]

Originally Posted by tbbg II

...Here are some facts: I had the coach weighed at Spartan Chassis the week prior to the Hoots rally. The coach weighed 39,900#. The GVWR is 43,700#, so no issue with total weight. The coach was overweight on the front axel and Spartan adjusted the tag to compensate. But after all the adjustments, the front axel still weighed 13,900 pounds, unoccupied. The front GAWR is 13,700#. ...

Hello Dave!

You and I talked about this at HOOTS and I feel your pain.

A couple points and I will use my coach to explain...

1. What is the SPARTAN chassis rating for your front AWR...not the one that Newmar posted? In my case Spartan rated the axle at 14,600# and Newmar derated it to 14,200#. After many corner weighings I know my coach is well balanced L & R. Based on the tire weight ratings and those corner weights I will run it up to 14,600#. Currently, fully loaded and road ready we are 14,320# I CHOOSE to do that because even at that weight I won't need to use more than 115 PSI in my front tires to support that weight. Besides, I loose about 8# from fuel burn every 7 miles I drive. LOL

2. As I alluded to, knowing your front corner weights is critical if you decide to do something similar.

3. As you have also demonstrated, you are no where near to maxing out your GVWR. That plays well into MY approach.

Personally, I think the folks at CS are doing the best they can but for some reason just don't realize there ain't the much room to shove things to the back of the coach and basement.

[tbbg II]

Originally Posted by Sky_Boss

Hello Dave!

You and I talked about this at HOOTS and I feel your pain.

A couple points and I will use my coach to explain...

1. What is the SPARTAN chassis rating for your front AWR...not the one that Newmar posted? In my case Spartan rated the axle at 14,600# and Newmar derated it to 14,200#. After many corner weighings I know my coach is well balanced L & R. Based on the tire weight ratings and those corner weights I will run it up to 14,600#. Currently, fully loaded and road ready we are 14,320# I CHOOSE to do that because even at that weight I won't need to use more than 115 PSI in my front tires to support that weight. Besides, I loose about 8# from fuel burn every 7 miles I drive. LOL

2. As I alluded to, knowing your front corner weights is critical if you decide to do something similar.

3. As you have also demonstrated, you are no where near to maxing out your GVWR. That plays well into MY approach.

Personally, I think the folks at CS are doing the best they can but for some reason just don't realize there ain't the much room to shove things to the back of the coach and basement.

Spartan suggested I get a new axel. I do not know what their rating is. I only know what the rating sheet states. Oh, I also know the next year the front axel was changed to a 14,600# model. Also, my port front tire is at maximum when I am in the coach with a full load of fuel. I have a basement AC and a Aquahot on the port side. It weights more than the starboard and I can't move those items.

With all respect to the CS folks, they are stating what they have been told to state. They know little about static weights.

This may become a pretty big deal.

Safety issues do not go away just because the warranty has expired or the vehicle has been sold to another owner.