Upgrade to Lithium Batteries

[Alpine06]

Yes sure for the Marketing group of a manufacturer that’s a big thing.
Is this really practical ?
A) How is this controlled ? Is the BMS reducing the incoming current to 6A ?
If not how are solar and alternator charging controlled in the cold ?
Is 6A charging really charging in the sense of what you need? Is this to replace any capacity of your house battery that might need 400 Ah to get topped of for your trip tomorrow ?
It comes back to what is practical.

Low temp charging is one thing that you as the buyer of a lithium battery really need to research and think about.

[RVPioneer]

Originally Posted by Alpine06

Yes sure for the Marketing group of a manufacturer that’s a big thing.
Is this really practical ?
A) How is this controlled ? Is the BMS reducing the incoming current to 6A ?
If not how are solar and alternator charging controlled in the cold ?
Is 6A charging really charging in the sense of what you need? Is this to replace any capacity of your house battery that might need 400 Ah to get topped of for your trip tomorrow ?
It comes back to what is practical.

Low temp charging is one thing that you as the buyer of a lithium battery really need to research and think about.

Give Trojan a call.

The 6A charge is for a single 12v, 110ah battery. Install 6 in parallel and it should be able to accept 36A. Not ideal, but charging is possible below 32F.

My intent was to clarify that statements about not being able to charge below freezing may not be true in all cases.

I’m also not one to dismiss the claims of a company like Trojan.

[Alpine06]

Originally Posted by RVPioneer

Give Trojan a call.



The 6A charge is for a single 12v, 110ah battery. Install 6 in parallel and it should be able to accept 36A. Not ideal, but charging is possible below 32F.



My intent was to clarify that statements about not being able to charge below freezing may not be true in all cases.



I’m also not one to dismiss the claims of a company like Trojan.

The pouch, cylindrical and prismatic cell (so all batteries) can be charged with a highly reduced charge rate. No matter the brand label on the outer casing. The physics do not change. The anode of the battery is at risk.
I know Trojan Trillium batteries as they are only one of two manufacturers having the UL cert at this time. They also have the requirement that you as the user start reducing the charge current already below 20C. That is really high. The BMS is Not doing that for you. I also have my own opinion about them that I do cot care to share here.

Again my point is if you select a drop in Lithium battery do your research on cold charging and how to accomplish that.

[paul65k]

Wow....lots of activity on this thread today

So I'm changing direction just a bit:

I do have the (6) Lion Energy 1300s installed in the location I mentioned at the foot of the bed which is directly above the current battery compartment. The 1300s do have an onboard BMS which will not allow charging if the batteries are below 32* (another reason I chose to put them inside).

The inverter will stay in its current location but instead of changing out the Xantrex for the Magnum 3012 (that I already own) I have decided to change course a little and go with a complete Victron Solution.

I already have a Victron Battery Monitor, MPPT Solar Controller and I'll be adding a Victron DC-DC converter to protect the batteries while charging from the alternator.

Going with the Victron 3000W Inverter Charger I'll have pretty much the same specs as the Magnum although it is only rated for 2400W continious, I can add a second one if I need more power later.

I'll also be adding Victron Color Controller GX which will allow me to monitor all systems at the same time and even connect it through a WiFi connection and monitor at anytime via phone or PC when away from the coach.

I'm also toying with adding a dedicated (Victron) 800W inverter dedicated to the Residential Refrigerator and of course it can also be monitored through the central system.

The Victron Inverter/charger is a wash for the Magnum so I might as well go that way, only adding the Color Controller (Under $500).

When done here's what the system will include

• Victron Multi-plus 3000W Hybrid Inverter Charger
• 1600W Solar Panels
• Victron 150/100 MPPT Solar Controller
• Victron 12V DC-DC Converter (30A) for Battery Charging from Alternator
• Victron Phoenix 800W Inverter (For Refer)
• (6) Lion Energy Safari UT1300 batteries (630AH Capacity)

I'm a little under the gun trying to get this system installed before we head down to Quartzsite 2 weeks from Monday

Any thoughts or suggestions.......Have I missed anything??

[Itinerant1]

Originally Posted by Alpine06

The pouch, cylindrical and prismatic cell (so all batteries) can be charged with a highly reduced charge rate. No matter the brand label on the outer casing. The physics do not change. The anode of the battery is at risk.
I know Trojan Trillium batteries as they are only one of two manufacturers having the UL cert at this time. They also have the requirement that you as the user start reducing the charge current already below 20C. That is really high. The BMS is Not doing that for you. I also have my own opinion about them that I do cot care to share here.

Again my point is if you select a drop in Lithium battery do your research on cold charging and how to accomplish that.

X2 on the research there are a lot of fly by nights getting into the game now, lots of folk have money just burning a hole in their pocket looking for the miracle battery.

Your comment on UL certification, here is just a short follow up to that. I didn't look at every brand just the ones that seem to be the flavor of the day.

Trojan Trillium- UL1642 (cells)
Elite GBS - UL1642 & UL1973
Battleborn - UL2054
Victron - couldn't find
Relion - UL1642
Lion Energy - couldn't find


UL1973
Standard for Batteries for Use in Stationary, Vehicle Auxiliary Power and Light Electric Rail (LER) Applications

UL1642
Standard for Lithium Batteries

UL2054
Standard for Household and Commercial Batteries

Some have these listed also...

UN38.3
Title: UN Manual of Tests and Criteria, 4th Revised Edition, Lithium Battery Testing Requirements

IEC 62133 is “Secondary cells and batteries containing alkaline or other non-acid electrolytes – Safety requirements for portable sealed secondary cells, and for batteries made from them, for use in portable applications”.

[Alpine06]

Very nice contribution Iternerant1.
I was always looking at UL1973 but really there might be even more relevant specs out there like you listed.

[Alpine06]

Originally Posted by paul65k

Wow....lots of activity on this thread today



So I'm changing direction just a bit:



I do have the (6) Lion Energy 1300s installed in the location I mentioned at the foot of the bed which is directly above the current battery compartment. The 1300s do have an onboard BMS which will not allow charging if the batteries are below 32* (another reason I chose to put them inside).



The inverter will stay in its current location but instead of changing out the Xantrex for the Magnum 3012 (that I already own) I have decided to change course a little and go with a complete Victron Solution.



I already have a Victron Battery Monitor, MPPT Solar Controller and I'll be adding a Victron DC-DC converter to protect the batteries while charging from the alternator.



Going with the Victron 3000W Inverter Charger I'll have pretty much the same specs as the Magnum although it is only rated for 2400W continious, I can add a second one if I need more power later.



I'll also be adding Victron Color Controller GX which will allow me to monitor all systems at the same time and even connect it through a WiFi connection and monitor at anytime via phone or PC when away from the coach.



I'm also toying with adding a dedicated (Victron) 800W inverter dedicated to the Residential Refrigerator and of course it can also be monitored through the central system.



The Victron Inverter/charger is a wash for the Magnum so I might as well go that way, only adding the Color Controller (Under $500).



When done here's what the system will include

• Victron Multi-plus 3000W Hybrid Inverter Charger
  
• 1600W Solar Panels
  
• Victron 150/100 MPPT Solar Controller
  
• Victron 12V DC-DC Converter (30A) for Battery Charging from Alternator
  
• Victron Phoenix 800W Inverter (For Refer)
  
• (6) Lion Energy Safari UT1300 batteries (630AH Capacity)
  

I'm a little under the gun trying to get this system installed before we head down to Quartzsite 2 weeks from Monday



Any thoughts or suggestions.......Have I missed anything??

Hi Paul,
Looks really nice.
Because you will add additional wire to your system you might want to choose to install a terminal fuse. Many DIY systems have that. I like Blue Sea as a company because I think they have quality items they sell.
The largest I can find is 300A but there is also a double holder so you could hook your 800W inverter to the second one and make that one smaller.
Check it out
Attachment 1

[paul65k]

Originally Posted by Alpine06

Hi Paul,
Looks really nice.
Because you will add additional wire to your system you might want to choose to install a terminal fuse. Many DIY systems have that. I like Blue Sea as a company because I think they have quality items they sell.
The largest I can find is 300A but there is also a double holder so you could hook your 800W inverter to the second one and make that one smaller.
Check it out
Attachment 1Attachment 270657

Thanks. There already is an in-line 300A Blade fuse that I will be upgrading to 400A for the 3K inverter and I was thinking it could handle both inverters but now maybe I'll consider getting another holder and re-using the existing 300A.

Upgrading all the wiring to 4/0 and was going to re-utilize the existing 2/0 for the smaller inverter so the 300 there should work.....ya think??

[paul65k]

Originally Posted by paul65k

Thanks. There already is an in-line 300A Blade fuse that I will be upgrading to 400A for the 3K inverter and I was thinking it could handle both inverters but now maybe I'll consider getting another holder and re-using the existing 300A.

Upgrading all the wiring to 4/0 and was going to re-utilize the existing 2/0 for the smaller inverter so the 300 there should work.....ya think??

Well.....new Batteries are installed and 4/0 cabling is run as well. What a pain to get the old cables out and the new ones in.......I actually pun an end on the new cable and screwed it together with the old ones and pulled it through....not too bad other than crawling underneath to grab the wire, change out grounds, etc.

The good news is that my old batteries were definitely TOAST. I had 4 L16 AGMs that were all swollen, I think this was a result of a severe overvoltage early in their lifecycle (20.3V)

In any case the new batteries are in and awesome, used about 15% yesterday and were fully charged in 1 hour and 2 minutes......would have taken forever with LA and the 3 cycles

[Alpine06]

Oh yes the AGM’s were defiantly overdue. This is going to be a huge improvement from what you had before. I think you will be very happy. Cable ends and shrink tubing looks good too you did a good job.
Maybe the bar to prop up the bed is not ideal probably not a concern I just noticed it.
I looked at your batteries a bit closer the BMS does have a low temp cut off that is a really nice feature that not every battery has.

[paul65k]

So I turned off the shore power last night to give the new Lithium battery bank a go running the following items:

• Inverter running
• TV running - (43")
• Internet w/Cellular modem and Routher
• Residential Refrigerator
• Propane heater moderate use (2-3 hours total)
• Cell phone and notebook computer chargers

It's been almost exactly 12 hours and the Battery monitor says we're at 78% of capacity, consumed 154AH (of 630 available) and our voltage is holding at 13.2V

Looking forward to heading to Quartzsite on Saturday and giving these guys a real workout.......let's see if we can go 10 days without running the generator

[Alpine06]

Paul,
You will see the 13.2V a lot. That is where most of the capacity of your battery will be (13.3-13.2V) unless you run large consumers like the microwave it will drop but then return to the figures above.
10 day’s ... no sweat unless you run into several days with no sun.
So with my “little” system in comparison I ran the generator for 1h in a 6 week time period. And that only because Cathrin wanted to bake a cake.

[Alpine06]

Oh yes forgot to mention:
So to establish the SOC (state of charge) on a lead acid battery the voltage is fairly accurate. For a Lithium not so much as the discharge curve is so flat.
Victron is using coulomb counting ... it’s like balancing your check book. The software accounts for ever mAh taken out and put back in to establish the SOC. Now this much said there are some inaccuracies that pile up over time and give you a number that will be off. So if you reach 100% SOC during a charge take the opportunity to re-sync the software to 100%.
I personally like the victron app and the BT range is good too accept for the solar charge controller I think it could be a bit better.

[paul65k]

Originally Posted by Alpine06

Oh yes forgot to mention:
So to establish the SOC (state of charge) on a lead acid battery the voltage is fairly accurate. For a Lithium not so much as the discharge curve is so flat.
Victron is using coulomb counting ... it’s like balancing your check book. The software accounts for ever mAh taken out and put back in to establish the SOC. Now this much said there are some inaccuracies that pile up over time and give you a number that will be off. So if you reach 100% SOC during a charge take the opportunity to re-sync the software to 100%.
I personally like the victron app and the BT range is good too accept for the solar charge controller I think it could be a bit better.

Great stuff....thanks so much for the great insight!!