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Old 05-09-2019, 09:01 PM   #43
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Try using Ospo first since the Phosphoric Acid and Dichromate solution will convert any remaining rust to Iron Phosphate allowing paint to adhere much better. Shipyards have been using Ospho since the late 1940's and many manufacturers used it as a dip to pre-treat any metal surface before priming and painting.

Note that this is a chemical treatment and not paint so you do have to allow it to dry at least overnight and if the reaction is not complete then a second treatment and overnight period will be required.

Many steel and cast iron products you purchase which have a black finish to them will have been treated with Ospho right after manufacture so it can be used to treat sledges and axes that have been left out in the weather as part of the restoration process.

See: Ospho Rust Treatment - Since 1947


I agree that as of late its not your Grand Fathers Rustoleum since in 1994 the Fergusson family sold it to RPM International and things changed.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:16 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilV View Post
Try using Ospo first since the Phosphoric Acid and Dichromate solution will convert any remaining rust to Iron Phosphate allowing paint to adhere much better. Shipyards have been using Ospho since the late 1940's and many manufacturers used it as a dip to pre-treat any metal surface before priming and painting.

Note that this is a chemical treatment and not paint so you do have to allow it to dry at least overnight and if the reaction is not complete then a second treatment and overnight period will be required.

Many steel and cast iron products you purchase which have a black finish to them will have been treated with Ospho right after manufacture so it can be used to treat sledges and axes that have been left out in the weather as part of the restoration process.

See: Ospho Rust Treatment - Since 1947


I agree that as of late its not your Grand Fathers Rustoleum since in 1994 the Fergusson family sold it to RPM International and things changed.


This reads like a industrial grade metal prep.
I did not even know you cab buy that over the counter.
Thank you for sharing this !!!
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:19 PM   #45
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I have mixed feelings about using LiFePO4 batteries in an application where they can't be quickly dumped in case there is an issue that causes a thermal runaway. Battery Management Systems are somewhat complicated to set up and when they malfunction it can take thousands of gallons of water to stop the thermal runaway reaction that may ensue.

I would not install them in my RV without an automated Cold Fire suppression system installed in the battery compartment along with some type of improved fire barrier to protect the rest of the RV from such an event.

Dry Chemical, CO2 and Halon type systems are useless against a LiFePO4 battery fire.


There was a boat fire a month ago where a small LiFePO4 failed up on deck in the Navigation Station and it was a total loss despite people in the boat and on the dock immediately using the docks fire hoses on it while waiting for the fire department to arrive. The people on the boat had to jump over the side and swim for it since they could not quench it enough to get past it and this was from just one small battery.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:29 PM   #46
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I have mixed feelings about using LiFePO4 batteries in an application where they can't be quickly dumped in case there is an issue that causes a thermal runaway. Battery Management Systems are somewhat complicated to set up and when they malfunction it can take thousands of gallons of water to stop the thermal runaway reaction that may ensue.

I would not install them in my RV without an automated Cold Fire suppression system installed in the battery compartment along with some type of improved fire barrier to protect the rest of the RV from such an event.


Dry Chemical, CO2 and Halon type systems are useless against a LiFePO4 battery fire.


I think that your reference is valid for a Lithium polymer battery however not so much for an EV tested Lithium Iron. I have yet to see a Tesla, Leave or newer Prius with an on board fire suppression system.
But yes I did install several backup systems to prevent a scenario where an overcharging could happen.
But we all have our opinions so I respect yours on the aspect of safety.
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Old 05-10-2019, 08:33 PM   #47
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Interesting thread. For the last four years I sit on about 30 KWh of lithium battery capacity every day during my daily commute in my car. I can just imagine all the hardware and software happening in that pack under my butt. Pretty reliable that’s for sure...and completely maintenance free. The attraction over liquid fuel is obvious.

I’ll continue to follow the thread and learn.

Thanks.
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Old 05-11-2019, 09:02 AM   #48
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One thing that I think is often overlooked when looking at the current lithium batteries as an option to Lead acid (either flooded or AGM) is the charging profile of Lithium.
The difference is that you can charge your batteries at FULL POWER all the way to 100%........in a real word scenario the difference when boondocking can be as much as 3-4 hours a day of additional generator time vs. the time needed to put the same number of AH back into Lithium Batteries.

Example of charge times based on our 100A on-board chargers.
  • 200 AH back into Lithium batteries ~2 hours to get to 100% charge
  • 200 AH into Lead Acid batteries ~4-5 hours of generator power to get to 100% charge

This might not sound like much.....only a few hours a day but over time it adds up to increased generator maintenance, fuel burn and wear and tear. It is also nice to only have to run the generator 2 hours (even 1 in morning and 1 at night) in crowded environments.....the Quartzsite rally comes to mind.

Cheers!
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Old 05-11-2019, 10:25 AM   #49
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Another advantage with lithium is that they are unaffected by a partial charge. It’s no big deal if they only get to 70% from solar or before quiet time.

From a safety standpoint, there’s always a possibility that something will go wrong. Taking extra precautions to reduce that possibility is never a bad idea. Personally, I’d put an engine/fuel fire, propane refrigerator fire or random electrical fire as a higher risk than a runaway lithium fire.

I’d also say that a home brew version could have an increased chance of failure/problems/reliability than an off the shelf product from a reputable manufacturer. You certainly have no warranty, no customer support and nowhere to turn in the event of a major problem.

My hat is off to anyone willing to give it a go. I wouldn’t be comfortable working out the bugs on such a system.
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Old 05-11-2019, 04:15 PM   #50
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Very well said.
The advantages are big and it is the technology of the future. Cost will have to come down. $1000 for 100Ah is just not a good price point and I think the manufactures profits are too high.
I know there are 2 other chemistries in development. One of them uses Al instead of a rare earth metal - so much cheaper, The other has further increased life and expected cycles are 30k ... wow that is ridiculous.

I did work on my system some more and will post a further update this weekend.
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Old 05-12-2019, 02:19 PM   #51
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Alpine06

This has been such so interesting following your adventure. My Alpine has 8 house battery's (golf cart style) plus 2 chassis battery's. Can you imagine the weight savings if I could put in Lithium battery..... I still have the original Xantrex 2000 inverter - yours probably came with the same one. I don't think they can do Lithium battery - what did you change to?
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Old 05-12-2019, 03:22 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by bobkatgifts View Post
This has been such so interesting following your adventure. My Alpine has 8 house battery's (golf cart style) plus 2 chassis battery's. Can you imagine the weight savings if I could put in Lithium battery..... I still have the original Xantrex 2000 inverter - yours probably came with the same one. I don't think they can do Lithium battery - what did you change to?
I still have a Xantrex SE Freedom inverter the 12V 2kW model that is typically installed. Mine did get replaced quite some years ago.

If you contact Xantrex and ask the official answer is that it is not designed to charge Lithium batteries, in the same breath you will hear that you have custom settings.

Yes your Xantrex can safely charge a Lithium battery once you change the settings. Let me get all of them tweaked in and I will post a summary here.

In essence there are 5 parameters to look at:
1. The high cut of voltage (this is the most important one) = 14.5V that is the only selection that fits.
2. The low cut of voltage … still looking at the voltage sag on higher loads to determine what is the best value.
3. The Temp compensation in millivolt per Kelvin will need to be set to 0 as the Lithium charge profile does not change with temperature.
4. Equalization charge will be set to disable
5. The bulk charge Amps in % … I set mine low for now until I am more comfortable. I charge with 50A but the full 100A will not be a problem.

I think that is it from top of my head.
So your weight savings will be around 343 lbs for the house batteries - wow that is substantial.
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Old 05-12-2019, 04:25 PM   #53
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Alternator Charging:
If you read this thread you will find my comment that I forgot about the alternator charging. To protect the system against overcharging I installed a Victron battery protect (so there are 2 in total). Unfortunately I was only thinking of the solar charge controller at the time and installed a 65A unit.
I have since then updated that to a 220A unit.
The alternator charge wire goes to the battery isolator. I found the very unit I have (made by Transpo) under different brand names with basically the same directions.
There are 4 connections A for alternator E for ignition sense 1 for the main battery and 2 for the auxiliary battery.
Here a diagram
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So right away I raised my eyebrows as mine was hooked up so that the house battery is on terminal 1. I think that is wrong it needs to be on terminal 2. Maybe it makes no difference as they get combined once the ignition is on but I changed them to match the instructions.

Next a genius stuck the ignition sense wire right into the fuse box on a leg of one fuse.
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... unfortunately there is no diagram anywhere posted for these fuses.
Searching for battery bay pics I cam up with this
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The diagram in the lower right made sense and I copied and printed it

You can insert a screwdriver tip into the fuse box corners and it will pop off ... not that easy but after a few German swearing words it did come off. Now I was able to determine the wire that the ignition sense was connected to and I used an automotive splice connector to properly hook it up.

Next I took the charge wire for the house battery off the positive bus terminal and cut it to length to fit to the “In” side of the Victron battery protect (BP220) together with the solar charger. Now because of the higher charge Amps I made a new 2/00 wire from the “Load” side of the BP220 to the new additional battery cut of switch (actually it goes to the terminal on the other BP220 but same thing). So basically to the house battery.
All done. I measured out the battery isolator and it seems to be working fine. If the voltage gets over 14.5V the BP220 will open the circuit, cut off the lithium battery and the alternator will continue to charge the chassis battery.

Are you asleep now ? That was quite long.
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Old 05-12-2019, 05:00 PM   #54
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What are you using to protect your alternator? Most can’t take the charging of Lipo and burn up.
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Old 05-12-2019, 08:39 PM   #55
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What are you using to protect your alternator? Most can’t take the charging of Lipo and burn up.
… well this question came up faster than I thought.

When I first researched this I knew that our Alpine can handle 8 house batteries and I thought that it has a monster alternator able to supply 250A+... come to find out the standard unit has 160A.


So lets explain for a sec why lithium batteries burn up alternators:

The charge current of a lithium battery is defined as a C rating i.e. my 400Ah battery at 1C (that is common) can take 400A with no problem. There are charge currents possible up to 5C … albeit not recommended by the manufacturer.

So a Lithium battery charges quicker that is one of its prized advantages and it does so because of its lower internal resistance (compared to lead acid).So the current flow is high and our little alternator would be running pegged out until the battery protect opens the circuit for high voltage. I would think at that time you can sweep up the melted aluminum housing from the alternator somewhere.
There are many van conversions out there i.e. the Sprinter running Lithium with no problem and a smaller alternator but that is because the current is throttled by the temperature of the alternator … ours is not.
So here are the solutions that I found:
#1 Just have the chassis battery connected disconnect the lithium from the battery isolator and be happy … hey maybe the sun is shining while you are driving.

#2 If money is no object I would install a DC to DC buck Boost. it limits the amps to what you programmed and even better it can take 12V from the alternator and still charge a 24V system if you would ever change to 24V down the road. Now that is nice... and expensive.

#3 just like the modern alternator we can throttle the current by using the sense wire and a temp probe on the alternator. The Balmar MC614H will do exactly that … not a bad solution as it will certainly provide longevity to our alternator no matter what.

#4 and this is the solution that I favor at the moment is to install a Victron 12/1200 and a fuse that limits the current. This is really nifty so the installed fuse lets say 50A will heat up once its gets to tis designed current limit and thus changing its resistance the controller can sense that and throttle back the current. The nice part is that you can install a fuse as you see fit for the possible current. With our 160 A alternator I think charging with 50A while driving is plenty … maybe 80A I have to see.

So there you have it. I took my coach for a 1h ride measuring current and temperature without anything in place right now and all was very much in spec but I ordered the Victron 12/1200 yesterday as an add on.

Also if you think about it once the battery isolator connects both batteries all the current will flow to the lithium battery and very little to the chassis battery … path of leased resistance. So this is another reason to add the current limiter.

Looks like I have to learn how to write shorter posts

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Old 05-12-2019, 10:37 PM   #56
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I think that your reference is valid for a Lithium polymer battery however not so much for an EV tested Lithium Iron. I have yet to see a Tesla, Leave or newer Prius with an on board fire suppression system.
But yes I did install several backup systems to prevent a scenario where an overcharging could happen.
But we all have our opinions so I respect yours on the aspect of safety.
.

It is the EV Lion that are the biggest offenders with the Tesla being among the worst for Thermal Runaway events. Fire departments across the US are just starting to catch up with the how to deal with these runaway events which can take over a day to deal with. Even if your charging system is good a minor roadway incident can set off a chain reaction hours to days after the damage has occurred.

I have a Nissan Leaf as my daily driver so I am keenly aware of the potential dangers of the 600 lb battery pack hanging under my car.

Here are two of the many fairly recent incidents involving a couple of different scenarios with the Tesla batteries.

This one involves a crash and its debatable on whether the crash caused the thermal runaway or a fire from a water heater in the garage however NTSB is investigating:




This one was from thermal runaway while charging and could have been from damage to the cells during shipping or a fault in the charging equipment:



Understanding how violent a EV Battery Fire can be one does take pause over the fact that there are not some type of passive suppression system mandated in EV's.
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