Upgrade to Lithium Batteries

[Alpine06]

NeilV,
The International Space Station is currently being converted to Lithium batteries ...
Make an image search for car crash fire there are 1000’s of of completely burned out cars because of the rapid fire from fuel and rubber parts resulting in a total burn down before the fire fighters ever get to it.
If you carry stored energy it’s dangerous no matter in what form, propane, gasoline, diesel, hydrogen... and electric.

[NeilV]

Originally Posted by Alpine06

NeilV,
The International Space Station is currently being converted to Lithium batteries ...
Make an image search for car crash fire there are 1000’s of of completely burned out cars because of the rapid fire from fuel and rubber parts resulting in a total burn down before the fire fighters ever get to it.
If you carry stored energy it’s dangerous no matter in what form, propane, gasoline, diesel, hydrogen... and electric.

Yes however most do not have Space Station Budgets nor are accepting that extreme high risk level to go camping.

There are more fuel and propane fires documented since there are more vehicles that use that fuel however it has to be a pretty catastrophic event and not just a charger gone awry to set them off or sprites from hot weather developing compromising the cell. When other types of batteries fail its a far less dramatic event and more of a nuisance while a LION battery failure is often a totally catastrophic life threatening event with little to no advance warning plus in a motor home you have the potential for the batteries thermal runaway event to set off 100 gallons of liquid fuel along with 100 or more lbs of propane.

In the case of a wet lead acid, AGM or gel lead acid battery you get bad odors or severe capacity loss for some time before a failure and with fuel systems most times there are visible signs and odors that can be observed well before hand and most instances can be more easily dealt with.

Like I mentioned I drive an electric car and have accepted that I may have to bail out if the traction battery has a runaway event however I am not installing that battery inside a living space. If I used LION batteries as storage for a solar power system at home it would be in a cabinet or shed separated by a safe distance from my home and definitely not in the basement of garage.

Being aware of this I do not park my electric car inside my garage either.

For the sake of others here its only responsible to raise awareness of the greater risk LION battery technology currently presents compared to the more traditional ones so others considering it can choose whether the added risk is acceptable to them or not. New technology is called the BLEEDING EDGE for very good reason.

[paul65k]

Neil V.....fires surely are something to be worried about??

Did you replace your absorbtion fridge as well??

[Schuby]

Speaking of batteries & Xantrex rs2000, with just 100 watt solar charge on volt meter on battery bank reads 13.05 & remote panel reads 12.5. This .55 volt difference is consistent with inverter/ charger on, just 100 watt solar charger on & with both chargers off. (8) 6 volt batteries in series parallel plus (2) 12 volt Coach batteries.

[Alpine06]

Originally Posted by Schuby

Speaking of batteries & Xantrex rs2000, with just 100 watt solar charge on volt meter on battery bank reads 13.05 & remote panel reads 12.5. This .55 volt difference is consistent with inverter/ charger on, just 100 watt solar charger on & with both chargers off. (8) 6 volt batteries in series parallel plus (2) 12 volt Coach batteries.

Hi Schuby,
I also see differences between my remote panel voltage and my Victron 712 Battery monitor. I know the Victron is more accurate and it matches my voltmeter... my remote panel is off by about 0,4V. I will have to review that at a later time as my hi charge cut off voltage can not be over by that much.
So I also noted this issue but cannot offer a fix for it at this moment.

[Schuby]

Thanks Joerg,

I tried a master reset of the Xantrex by disconnecting all power for 30 minutes and there was no change. Wonder if it could have something to do with the temperature sensor? Again, it's the same spread with the sensor plugged in or not.

[jcussen]

Thanks for the good info Neil, thought about the dangers for a minute or two, then decided it was a acceptable risk for me.

[Alpine06]

Originally Posted by Schuby

Thanks Joerg,

I tried a master reset of the Xantrex by disconnecting all power for 30 minutes and there was no change. Wonder if it could have something to do with the temperature sensor? Again, it's the same spread with the sensor plugged in or not.

I don’t think that the temp sensor has an influence on that. It will only be used by the software to shift the end of charge voltage up when it is colder I.e. winter use.

[r3meyer]

The voltage difference is from where the reading is taken. You have voltage drop to account for based on the length and size of cable. On some of the high dollar charge controllers they have a separate sense wire with the sol purpose of being hooked up directly to the battery terminals to get an exact reading. The Xantrax gets its reading via its large terminal cables I believe. Depending on what is actually going on with your charge system this will never be an exact or correct reading of SOC or voltage.

[Alpine06]

Originally Posted by r3meyer

The voltage difference is from where the reading is taken. You have voltage drop to account for based on the length and size of cable. On some of the high dollar charge controllers they have a separate sense wire with the sol purpose of being hooked up directly to the battery terminals to get an exact reading. The Xantrax gets its reading via its large terminal cables I believe. Depending on what is actually going on with your charge system this will never be an exact or correct reading of SOC or voltage.

Yes that makes very much sense to me.
So I measured this again to determine what delta V I have and I think I miss spoke before as I measured only 0,14V. Still quite a bit for the maybe 5 feet of wire in between. So I have never looked at the connections on the inverter but will check that as well.

[Schuby]

Voltage drop seems logical, CAT5 cable is at least 35 feet from Xantrex to remote display (I've noticed before Alpine would use a 50' cable for a 20' run) I will check the voltage at the Xantrex terminals to see if it is the same as the batteries or the remote display!
Thanks

[Alpine06]

Hi Schuby,
I think there is a miss understanding. So the cable to the remote display is just used to transmit the data. So let’s say the inverter registers 12,5V then the value (or information) of 12,5 is communicated via the bus set up (so the cable). The voltage is not read at the remote display. This means the length of wire run to the remote is not effecting the voltage reading.
However the wire gauge and the distance from your battery to the inverter does make a difference.
The calculation for the voltage drop is really simple. The wire length goes into the Formular x2 and gets multiplied by the resistance per 1km per 1mm square cross section of the wire times the Amps. Anyways my value comes out to 0,01V or actually a bit less when I remember right.
My point is that the Xantrex reading is off and unfortunately in the wrong direction so it would cause my lithium battery to get charged too far beyond the selected value.
I have not checked the wire connections today but going to do that tomorrow.
Joerg

[s8t]

Just a note about an issue I haven’t seen mentioned. I have 2 300 Relions and didn’t know that these batteries cannot be charged below 32 degrees without damage. As far as I know this is true of all LiFePo batteries, so some method of either warming them or disconnecting them while driving in cold weather should be found.

[Alpine06]

Originally Posted by s8t

Just a note about an issue I haven’t seen mentioned. I have 2 300 Relions and didn’t know that these batteries cannot be charged below 32 degrees without damage. As far as I know this is true of all LiFePo batteries, so some method of either warming them or disconnecting them while driving in cold weather should be found.

You are spot on. You can discharge the Lithium but cannot charge below freezing without damaging the cells.
This is why I opted for the Victron components I can disconnect the charge at any low / high temperature setting in the 712 BMV.
Also the alternator needs to charge something while driving otherwise the diodes will burn up. I have a solution in place about 80% finished and will report back once I am happy with the testing.