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Old 05-20-2020, 03:31 PM   #1
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Vansco issues with a 2006 Alpine Apex

I have a 2006 Alpine Apex and have a question about the Vansco system. I think some or part of the unit is malfuncting. When I turn the ignition switch off the engine keeps running. I go back and turn the chassis battery switch off and the engine will quit running. Turning the switch back on and the engine will start. Does it have to do with voltage or current or is it going south? This system is new to me so any help would be just "swell' Thanks Don Dahl I would welcom a phone call also.
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Old 05-20-2020, 04:08 PM   #2
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EngineerMike will have much better answers the these.

My first thought is that there may be an issue with the ignition switch or wiring.

It is interesting that the engine restarts when the chassis battery switch is closed, as starting the engine requires the ignition switch be held in the “start” position and then released to the “on” position once started.

You’ve reset the VMM by turning it off, which is one of the first steps when troubleshooting. If the ignition switch is shown to be functioning properly and the wiring is correct, the next step would be to swap the front and rear VMM’s to see if the problem goes away.

The front unit is easier with 2 people unless you’ve flipped the mounting bolts so that the threaded studs are facing inboard.
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Old 05-20-2020, 04:44 PM   #3
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Agree Engineer Mike is your best source.


In the meantime, you can check the following lights on your Vansco. These are for the Limited series, but I believe they are the same for the Apex.


On the rear Vansco unit, if normal, with the ignition OFF, the following lights are ON:
Inputs #4 and 17. No Output lights are ON.

With ignition ON, the rear Vansco lights that are ON:
Inputs #1,3,4,6,12,13
Outputs #10, 13, 14, 20


I posted only the rear Vansco because of the connection to the starter and ignition. Start with this and tell us if you have a different configuration of lights in the key OFF and ON positions. I'm guessing that you still have lights ON in the output side even though your ignition switch is OFF.


Given what you've described, it should be fairly easy to watch the rear Vansco with the ignition OFF and the battery disconnect switch OFF. Simply turning the battery disconnect switch to ON should light up only Input #4, 17, and nothing else. In my coach the Vansco is in the battery compartment with the disconnect switch so it would be very easy. Don't know the location in an Apex.
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Old 05-20-2020, 05:59 PM   #4
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Did this just start happening out of the blue or was some other work being done to the coach?
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Old 05-20-2020, 06:18 PM   #5
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Could it be the secondary starter solenoid failed in the closed state? I would check continuity across the large lugs to see if the contacts are closed. A couple good raps with a smaller hammer might open the contacts if they really are closed with the ignition switch off. It could maybe be the ignition switch failed in the start position.
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Old 05-20-2020, 06:30 PM   #6
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….good diagnosis Carter, was thinking the same thing but would think a stuck starter would sound quite different from an actually running engine????? my only experience with a stuck secondary starter solenoid was that I could barely hear the starter over the running engine....End result--I replaced the solenoid, switched the solenoid power supply to a "switchable" circuit, and added a back-up beeper to the circuit to help detect a future failure......
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Old 05-20-2020, 07:21 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ljwt330 View Post
Agree Engineer Mike is your best source.


In the meantime, you can check the following lights on your Vansco. These are for the Limited series, but I believe they are the same for the Apex.


On the rear Vansco unit, if normal, with the ignition OFF, the following lights are ON:
Inputs #4 and 17. No Output lights are ON.

With ignition ON, the rear Vansco lights that are ON:
Inputs #1,3,4,6,12,13
Outputs #10, 13, 14, 20


I posted only the rear Vansco because of the connection to the starter and ignition. Start with this and tell us if you have a different configuration of lights in the key OFF and ON positions. I'm guessing that you still have lights ON in the output side even though your ignition switch is OFF.


Given what you've described, it should be fairly easy to watch the rear Vansco with the ignition OFF and the battery disconnect switch OFF. Simply turning the battery disconnect switch to ON should light up only Input #4, 17, and nothing else. In my coach the Vansco is in the battery compartment with the disconnect switch so it would be very easy. Don't know the location in an Apex.
Some peculiarities exist in the VMM programming that are specific to the 2004 models, and probably the lone VMM equipped 2003 that has been brought to our attention. The lights that you’ve mentioned for your 2004 may be the same for all models, but it’s possible that a different combination of lights come on in the 2005 and later models.

I’ll take a look at ours tomorrow.

In the mean time, my spidey senses have me leaning toward an ignition switch or solenoid failure. Which will be less costly that a VMM.
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Old 05-21-2020, 07:04 AM   #8
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Alpine Apex Vansco issues.

Thanks for the responses. We are headed out this morning so next week I will get to checking more but in the meantime with the ignition switch off the input lights 4 and 17 ore on and output 19 is on. Also the PWR light is on and the NET light is blinking. I don't know where the secondary solidnoid is.
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Old 05-21-2020, 10:16 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVPioneer View Post
Some peculiarities exist in the VMM programming that are specific to the 2004 models, and probably the lone VMM equipped 2003 that has been brought to our attention. The lights that you’ve mentioned for your 2004 may be the same for all models, but it’s possible that a different combination of lights come on in the 2005 and later models.

I’ll take a look at ours tomorrow.

In the mean time, my spidey senses have me leaning toward an ignition switch or solenoid failure. Which will be less costly that a VMM.

Actually, the lights I posted are from Engineer Mike's PDF of 2005 and later units. Still, the OP has a later model Apex which may be different as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHL View Post
Thanks for the responses. We are headed out this morning so next week I will get to checking more but in the meantime with the ignition switch off the input lights 4 and 17 ore on and output 19 is on. Also the PWR light is on and the NET light is blinking. I don't know where the secondary solidnoid is.

The lights seem to be normal on the Vansco, though #19 is the wildcard but may be due to the different year/model of your coach. I tend to agree that there seems to be a stuck electrical component involved here.


Can you confirm that the engine actually turns over and starts as soon as the battery disconnect is switched ON?
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Old 05-21-2020, 12:06 PM   #10
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We have an 07 Apex. With no key in the ignition, and connected to shore power, our rear VMM indicates exactly like yours.
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Old 05-21-2020, 02:26 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ljwt330 View Post
Actually, the lights I posted are from Engineer Mike's PDF of 2005 and later units. Still, the OP has a later model Apex which may be different as well.





The lights seem to be normal on the Vansco, though #19 is the wildcard but may be due to the different year/model of your coach. I tend to agree that there seems to be a stuck electrical component involved here.


Can you confirm that the engine actually turns over and starts as soon as the battery disconnect is switched ON?
Thanks. The #19 light “on” indicates that the house batteries have been fully charged and the charging voltage is now being passed through to the chassis batteries.
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:19 AM   #12
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Thanks all for the input. We are back from a 500 mile trip. The engine started fine and all systems worked until time to shut down. Turning the key off shut down the dash and front fans but not the engine. It stayed running with input lights 1-3-4-6-12-13 and output lights 3-4-13-14-17-19 0n. Disconnecting the ground lead on the chassis batteries did not stop the engine nor turn off the Vansco. Turning the factory mounted chassis battery switch shut down the engine. Turning the key on and then off the input showed 4-6-12-13 and the output showed 13-14 blinking and 19 0n. Turning the battery switch off resets everything. There are two solid state relays in the battery bay one of which has a connection to the Vansco. There are no solinids in there so I don't know where to look for them. The dash lights and fans seem to work fine with the key switch both on and off. Could it be the engine ECM? When running the coach runs and handles great. I am going to replace the relays and see what happens. Thanks again for the help.
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:27 AM   #13
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…..not unheard of for diesel engines but very unusual for Alpines?????....have to assume its not the primary or secondary starter solenoids as a running engine would sound much different from a stuck starter but for reference, primary starter solenoid is on the starter itself, secondary is "usually" on/behind the rear bulkhead of the battery compartment, near where the air filter is located??????
PS--not sure but believe chassis and house bats are grounded together and perhaps connected to frame at several points--might explain why removing neg cable on chassis bat didn't kill engine but pos bat ill switch did?????
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:00 PM   #14
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OK--here is an input from a fellow Alpiner with a similar experience....he recommends you check the OEM multi-plug on the engine ECM....he found corrosion on/between two of the pins which allowed them to "cross-talk" and confuse the engine ECM when trying to shut down....let us know what you find......
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