Fleetwood Quality

[sipNgas]

Originally Posted by TwelveVolt

Fleetwood has implemented an assembly line fashioned after the automobile building style. The plant floor is a series of work stations. A clock on the ceiling counts down the minutes. When it hits zero, every vehicle is moved forward one station. I could not see any spots to sideline a vehicle, so my question on the plant tour was, "What happens if the work at a station is not finished or needs to be corrected when the clock runs out?". I was assured that this never happens.

The drawback to this assembly line approach is that the designers must come up with a way to slap the parts together in a reliable way in a fixed number of minutes each and every time. There is no allowance for "workmanship" on the shop floor. It is strictly an assembly exercise. The difference in places like Detroit is that they can amortize their engineering costs over a much larger number of vehicles produced.

I guess it would depend on how much time is on "the clock". If FW thinks quantity is more important than quality, then there will be issues. All the issues in my MH (so far) all seem to be related to the lack of emphasis on quality (i.e. lack of attention to detail). It really is too bad because if they spent just a little bit more time with my unit, it would be a high quality MH. This little bit of extra time would benefit them ten-fold in reputation, future sales, and lower maintenance costs. But instead, they rolled it out the door as a mediocre MH that had to be returned to the dealer for corrections which in turn gives birth to all of us discussing the low quality and disappointment.

I still love my FW, but it's aggravating to think they were so close to building and delivering a top shelf product.

[SarahW]

I don't mean to sound like a Fleetwood Fan Girl (though truthfully, I am ), but don't all RV manufacturers use the assembly line process? It would only make sense to do so. I think everyone who has ever owned an RV would agree that the whole industry needs serious QUALITY CONTROL processes, but it doesn't appear to keep anyone from buying so we have to live with what they churn out.

Our Bounder has fair build quality, but we understand that with a gasser, lighter weight materials are necessary. If solid wood cabinets, granite countertops and ceramic tile floors were installed, there wouldn't be any CCC left for us and our stuff.

[TwelveVolt]

Originally Posted by SarahW

I don't mean to sound like a Fleetwood Fan Girl (though truthfully, I am ), but don't all RV manufacturers use the assembly line process? It would only make sense to do so. I think everyone who has ever owned an RV would agree that the whole industry needs serious QUALITY CONTROL processes, but it doesn't appear to keep anyone from buying so we have to live with what they churn out.

Our Bounder has fair build quality, but we understand that with a gasser, lighter weight materials are necessary. If solid wood cabinets, granite countertops and ceramic tile floors were installed, there wouldn't be any CCC left for us and our stuff.

Is "fair build quality" really a target to aim for?

The alternative to an assembly line is where every small manufacturer starts. The tradespeople come to the worksite, just like building a house. If a plumber strips a thread, then he/she comes back with a new part, possibly tomorrow, and works on the problem until it is finished. It takes 20 minutes to fix the problem on the partially built coach versus 6 hours at the dealership to find and fix the problem. The coach isn't going anywhere and if it takes an extra hour or day to finish it correctly, so be it.

The problem with the assembly line is the timer can motivate a "close enough" mindset. The problem will simply go away in a few minutes. Also, a high end coach may require more time and materials than the mid range or base model. How do you deal with this if they are all on the same assembly line and therefore the same timer?

[SarahW]

Originally Posted by TwelveVolt

Is "fair build quality" really a target to aim for?

The alternative to an assembly line is where every small manufacturer starts. The tradespeople come to the worksite, just like building a house. If a plumber strips a thread, then he/she comes back with a new part, possibly tomorrow, and works on the problem until it is finished. It takes 20 minutes to fix the problem on the partially built coach versus 6 hours at the dealership to find and fix the problem. The coach isn't going anywhere and if it takes an extra hour or day to finish it correctly, so be it.

The problem with the assembly line is the timer can motivate a "close enough" mindset. The problem will simply go away in a few minutes. Also, a high end coach may require more time and materials than the mid range or base model. How do you deal with this if they are all on the same assembly line and therefore the same timer?

Maybe I should have used different language. By "fair build quality" I was referring to materials more than craftsmanship. As with everything in life, true quality craftsmanship costs more money.

Is there an RV that is not built on an assembly line? As long as we RVers keep buying, there is no incentive for RV manufacturers to do anything differently.

[moisheh]

I have toured about 10 RV plants. Haven't been to a FW plant since the ASV takeover. Although all plants use an assembly line ( is there any other way?) there are differences on how the line works. I have never seen a timer at work stations. I would think that would lead to a rush job and problems for the future owner. RV mfrs. have 2 choices. Build a quality unit at a slightly higher cost or rush the units down the line and pay dealers to make it right. With a one year warranty the latter is the usual choice. In the past FW did a good job on plumbing and electrical but horrible when it comes to cabinetry fit and finish. Alignment of interior doors, outside compartment doors and even entry doors is a common problem. Most mfrs. use a colored masking tape system to identify problems. As the unit goes from one station to another an inspector checks the workmanship. They apply masking tape to mark the area and record this on a QC sheet. Once the unit is complete a troubleshooting crew is supposed to correct the problems. Sometimes there is more masking tape than blank areas!!!! Monaco used to call this the white glove inspection. Owners called it the white cane inspection! Tiffin had almost no inspectors and an untrained crew yet RV'rs think they are the greatest. In the past FW always gave good value for the $$. Has that changed?

[SarahW]

Originally Posted by moisheh

In the past FW always gave good value for the $$. Has that changed?

In my (limited) experience, no it has not changed. When we were shopping for our first RV, we test drove and closely examined similar gasoline models from Newmar, Winnebago, Itasca, Forest River, Coachmen and Fleetwood. In our opinion, the Fleetwood won out over all of those in fit/finish, general appeal, and floorplan layout. (At least in the units we compared.) The Bounder was the most bang for the buck, and we have not had any regrets in the 2 1/2 years we've owned it. Admittedly, there is not any tremendous difference when considering similarly-priced RVs, so it comes down to personal preference and opinion. There is no "stand out" brand in quality IMO, at least in the $150k price range.

I believe that many times the "issues" we read about on the forums are not due to manufacturing defects so much as new owner ignorance and lack of understanding how RV systems work. Getting to know how to properly operate the systems on a complicated motorhome takes a bit of time and can be overwhelming for new owners. (Of course, there are PLENTY of manufacturing defects, too...across the board and with all manufacturers. )

[Clayobx]

Well said Sarah.

[gdetty]

Under the environment of "quality" buying and having an RV has a lot of areas where quality either stands out, is average or not that good. I believe I read in this thread where someone who bought a 2014 had that unit more in the shop then on the road and camping, which is I believe why people buy RV's, was not achievable. Also if one contacts FW about the amount of downtime, FW would possibly extend the 1-year warranty for lost time. Seems when you ask this you'll hear "crickets". So quality starts in the manufacturing stage, then the sale, and the shakedown and then warranty repairs. Within that process are Customer Service Reps. The customer rep demonstration regarding the coach we traded in - before buying this coach - went like this: I apologize, that is something we need to fix. It's better advertising to have our units on the road and in campgrounds rather than in the service bays getting repaired. We will send the part to fix this at no cost or inconvenience to you. And so they did. The FW Rep wanted me to call so the problem would be fixed. Yadda Yadda Ho Hum well our policy is if you want the part overnighted you have to pay for that fee. REALLY? Okay sitting for 1-month because of what happened (or didn't happen) from poor workmanship during the manufacturing stage... or a leak because a hose wasn't connected and sitting waiting for parts and repairs, during prime camping season does not make me a happy camper, pun intended. Okay now it's principle. The shipping cost would have probably been (overnight) less than $50. My stake in this is fuel to do the back-and-forth at my cost would be an amount equal to a camping weekend fee... probably more. It could have been and should have been handled in a more customer-appreciation manner. It wasn't. To equate the philosophy "You can still use it - when the part comes in - take it back to the dealership to be repaired" may seem a good answer, maybe policy. To do that, for me, is 1 weekend take to there, next weekend pick it up. But I like the "No inconvenience to you". My policy, "Like the coach, like the floor plan, want to get away but can't." And steering just one potential buyer to look elsewhere will be my "Buyer not a happy camper" pitch 'look elsewhere" from now on. This is just my assessment. I know there are those who have had positive involvement from FW. I have had my 2014 in for repairs 3 times in 4 months. All factory initiated problems.

[DebbieMH]

gdetty ... I feel your pain. I've posted my displeasure on the Excursion thread. I'm not as disappointed with the coach as a I am with the attitudes of FWCS and the dealerships (service). The dealerships are great when you are buying .. but after that - call the service department - it's a nightmare.

We will see ... FWCS said they would call Dixie for me and put a fire under them ... we will see if that does happen. I'm leaving the door cracked in hopes they come through. That is a 180 mile trip that I will make on Tuesday. Then another 180 miles to go get the MH sometime (hopefully) in August.

Let's hope FW gets the idea of "customer service" for folks other than Providence or American Coach owners. Us lower price tag level folks matter too!

[gdetty]

Thanks for a confirmation DebbieMH. I would hope there wasn't an aristrocracy in the camping - motorhome life, but in thinking so I guess it would be very naive thinking on my part. I call it "bluecollar camping." When my father built his bus-motorhomes in the 60's and we went camping, there were all makes and models and all styles of camping "together." From converted Greyhounds, to school buses, to Airstream trailers, to fold-out, to tenters and all melded together whether in a club or just as friends. But I read one of those "look down the nose" situations regarding a Class B showing up at one of the Motorhome clubs and when they explained they were writing an article for the club magazine it was uh hmm okay that's okay then come on in. I'm not trying to alienate any million dollar Class A people - but when I'm camping I'm still beaming about being able to have what I have. And under being an ambassador for the RV you have, most campers start out and work their way up. So those "Shasta trailer" campers and those Scotty campers would look at the Airstreams. I have not found a more friendly group of people than the Bluecollar generation.

I just talked to my sales-person and it's looking like 3 - 4 weeks until the process (take pictures, write explaination then FW tells them "HOW" to repair, send parts by Amish horse and buggy, wait for an open bay and free technician at the dealership and then make the repairs), until the warrenty work is done. The foundation for "process" is probably liability-based. And I would suspect the FWCS Reps are overwhelmed and have a sheet of policies directly in front of them. But I have yet to see an RV dealership with open bays and technicians sitting there waiting for some work. Our initial camping was without the hydraulic levelers down because of a factory defect ( and the fluid saturated our driveway). The next few was with a sporatic outside TV - and only by this forum was that problem fixed, (plug was unplugged under the bottom drawer). The members on this forum are wonderful. But they cannot expedite the problems of service. Yes FWCS could and should do a better job. My call - she wasn't trying to solve the problem to help me - she was there to explain FW policy - like it or not. So what type of ambassador do you think I will be.

Regarding this forum, there is no artistocracy or rudeness or answers that one would go huh to? There are an amazing group of people who get engaged and get involved and it is that group of camping people I remember. The people on these forums are amazing, simply amazing inventors, describers, problem solvers and far better at providing an operation manual than what comes in your RV. I have found great partnership and maybe the base are bluecollar people, but they live up to the Mission Statement of this forum each and every time.

[DebbieMH]

I agree, the people on this forum are great. Very rarely do you see another member with "attitude". There is a new Bounder owner here that has it worse than all of us put together, he hasn't had his coach almost the whole year, poor thing. I guess there are lemons in every manufacturer. I've calmed down a bit and am now hoping to get the coach back by mid august so we can reschedule Natchez and Memphis. We will see. Yes, people on this forum have helped more than they know! Just having a place to vent, helps.

[sipNgas]

Good timing on reviving the quality discussion. I just returned from my first 3000 mile vacation with my new rig (after many smaller trips for shakedown and repairs) and thought I would share my thoughts. This is a post meant for discussing FW quality, not to complain about/to Fleetwood (although it may sound that way).

I thought I had most of the major issues worked out but the hits just keep on coming! Some (and I emphasize the word some) of the items that I can add to my growing list are a broken outside compartment latch (locked me out for the duration), broken refridge latch (and the large mess that went with the contents spilling all over the rig), shower leaking into the kitchen, and the large slide out grinding slots into the floorboards and flooring.

But the crème de la crème of the trip was breaking down in the middle of nowhere, getting towed, being stuck at the Freightliner shop for two weeks, and having to rent a car to drive the family home and then drive back to pick up the rig (added 2000 miles to my driving). This happened as a direct result of the factory not securing the engine harness properly (Freightliner's explanation) and it falling into and cooling fan and getting ripped apart (pictures below). This rendered the drivetrain inoperable.

I can handle many of the smaller repair items as that's the nature of owning such an complex moving house that can drive you across country. But the fact that they just keep coming, together with a major breakdown on a brand new rig, is a bit disheartening! So if you ask me about FW quality, my answer will be different than when I answered several months ago. It does not seem to be getting better (settling in after the initial repair items). I still like the rig but I think I’m stubbornly denying that I may have purchased a maintenance nightmare. Please tell me it’s not so!!

Fleetwood and my dealer were NO help during this ordeal! I thank my lucky stars that Freightliner was attentive and responsive!!! I have nothing but great words for Freightliner and the Grand Junction Colorado Freightliner shop that handled my repairs. I would purchase another Freightliner, hands down!

[sipNgas]

Originally Posted by DebbieMH

Let's hope FW gets the idea of "customer service" for folks other than Providence or American Coach owners. Us lower price tag level folks matter too!

Hi Debbie, that's interesting! By purchasing a rig in the DP price range I thought I would get some improved customer service from FW. But apparently I'm still sitting at the kids table. That was my disillusioned perspective. If this is the kind if treatment I'd get after spending $500k on a motorhome, FW is off the table for me!!

Hoping you're having better luck with your rig!

[DebbieMH]

SipNgas - wow. I'm so sorry this happend. I really feel bad for you. Hopefully the MH will be trouble free after this. Thanks for posting.