Bounder: My Poor Visibility Headlights

[DegoRed]

Brian, you are not getting your hopes up at all. When we were having problems with our generators and Thor was doing nothing. One of the owners got NHTSA involved, which they in turn send a letter to Thor Corp. which got Corp. all worked up. Couple days later, Thor was calling all of us who had issues. You may be onto a bigger issue than you know.

[LV_RV]

Please Brian, you are the man, keep it up. The Bounder was created through people's feedback. The fact that we are all calling in.....they need to do something! We should all keep calling!

[Brian W]

LV_RV,

I am done calling in and sending e-mails. I have sent multiple e-mails and made numerous phone calls detailing my issue in regards to the headlamps. I also sent them pictures showing the poor light output. I notified them Thursday of my next steps in regards to this issue. Joy at Customer Service was great to deal with and said she was going to send documentation for their next managers meeting. Hopefully anyone that feels their headlamps are inadequate and create a safety issue will call in as well. As they say, there is strength in numbers.

I hope to finish my first draft of a NHTSA complaint and send to Daniel Stern for review. One thing he made very clear is that the complaint needed to be worded a certain way, or it would basically go in the trash.

Brian


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[tderonne]

Originally Posted by Brian W

One thing he made very clear is that the complaint needed to be worded a certain way, or it would basically go in the trash.

That's what I was getting at when I mentioned sharing your letter. Like, "dim" lights vs "inadequate" vs. "poor". Each could end up in different categories.


And sounds great that Dan is helping.

[Brian W]

Originally Posted by tderonne

That's what I was getting at when I mentioned sharing your letter. Like, "dim" lights vs "inadequate" vs. "poor". Each could end up in different categories.


And sounds great that Dan is helping.

I completely agree with everything you have said. Here is the first draft I sent to Mr. Stern. Please take it easy on me since I am not the best at conveying my thoughts on paper.

Vehicle: Fleetwood Bounder 2014
Approximate Incident Date: 04/21/2014
Was there a crash: No
Was there a fire: No
Was there an Injury or Fatality: No
Vehicle mileage at time of incident: 4,000
Vehicle speed at time of incident: 60mph
Affected Parts: Lighting

Tell us what happened: While operating my motorhome at approximately 60 mph I turned on the headlamps due to darkness. I could not tell if the headlamps were working or not. We came upon an accident that allowed us to get in close proximity to another vehicle that allowed us to verify that the lamps were on. Due to the poor illumination produced by the headlamps we have stopped night time driving until a proper fix is found. Fleetwood RV has been notified of the situation and sent me to a dealership to have the ground checked and voltages checked. The ground was found to be proper and the voltage at the lamp connector was later found to have not been tested properly.

FMVSS 108 requires photometric testing of lamps at 12.8 volts +/- 20 mv, or 12.78 – 12.82 volts. I purchased a volt tester and tested lamps as directed by an automotive lighting consultant. Voltages for low beams were found to be 12.16 volts for the low beam passenger side and 12.49 volts for the driver’s side. These voltages were found with the engine running, lights on, and battery voltage at 14.17 volts. I then conducted a voltage drop test with engine off and found the voltage drop to the passenger side low beam to be 1.53 volts to the positive terminal and .21 volts to the negative terminal for a combined voltage drop of 1.74 volts. The automotive lighting consultant considers this to be a significant drop in voltage. This also leads me to question if the turn signal lamps meet the maximum allowed voltage drop of 0.8 volts as required by FMVSS 108.

As designed my electrical system does not produce enough voltage to reach the designed optical output of each bulb creating an unsafe and dangerous driving environment that could result in a driving accident causing injury or death. Furthermore, using markings located on each headlamp I have discovered that my headlamps are neither OEM certified, nor CAPA certified. The manufacturer is DEPO, who have been involved in 19 recalls for headlamps over the last 7 years. DEPO headlamps were also the subject of testing by CAPA in 2003 and 2004. The 2003 study indicated that DEPO headlamps did not comply with FMVSS 108 standards in 70 percent of headlamps tested, and had a failure rate of 100% in the 2004 study.

I have reached out to other owners of Fleetwood Bounders and all owners have responded that they believe their lighting to be poor. I also provided pictures of both my low beams and high beams at night and only one owner indicated that his headlamps appeared to be slightly brighter. This has led me to believe that this issue is systemic across the Bounder line going back to at least model year 2012. I am requesting that Fleetwood RV or the NHTSA issue a recall to inspect all Bounders from year 2012 to 2014 and determine a remedy to increase voltage to a minimum of 12.8 volts, as well as have random headlamps from Bounders tested for compliance of required photometric values. If the photometric requirements are not met then Bounder should also issue a recall to replace headlamps with at minimum, CAPA certified headlamps.

[Brian W]

I have received editing back from Mr. Stern and I have just completed submitting a complaint to the NHTSA. It went through some serious editing due to limitations on the amount of spaces allowed on the NHTSA website. I am in the process of completing the changes to my letters to ASV and Fleetwood RV. They will be mailed certified mail tomorrow. The biggest changes to the letter were technical in nature, and removing Mr. Sterns name and replacing it with Certified Automotive Lighting Consultant and Expert Witness since I did not hire him, and I respect his request. CAPA was mostly removed since he has some strong feelings on that subject.

I am posting the NHTSA complaint here as it is put into the public domain anyway. If anyone would like to read the letter I am submitting to ASV and Fleetwood RV, please PM me and I will send you a copy. I do not want to post it to a public forum.

Here is the NHTSA complaint text as submitted:

Due to poor illumination produced by my motorhome headlamps we have stopped night driving until a fix is found. FMVSS 108 requires photometric testing of lamps at 12.8v +/- 20mv, or 12.78 to12.82 volts. I purchased a volt tester and tested operating voltage at the headlamps as directed by a automotive lighting consultant. Voltages for low beams were 12.16v for the passenger side and 12.49v for the drivers side. Voltages were found with engine running, lights on,and battery 14.17v. I conducted a voltage drop test with engine off and found voltage drop to the passenger side low beam to be1.53v to the positive terminal and .21v to the negative terminal for a combined voltage drop of 1.74v. The automotive lighting consultant considers this a significant drop in voltage.This leads me to question if the turn signal lamps meet maximum allowed voltage drop of 0.8v required by FMVSS 108. As designed my electrical system doesnt supply enough voltage to reach rated output of each bulb creating an unsafe and dangerous driving environment. Using markings located on each headlamp I discovered that the compliance certifications of my headlamps are questionable and possibly fraudulent. The manufacturer is DEPO, who have been involved in 19 recalls for headlamps over the last 7 years. I have reached out to other owners of Fleetwood Bounders and all responded they believe their lighting to be poor. This leads me to believe that this issue is systemic across the Bounder line going back to at least model year 2012. I am requesting Fleetwood RV or NHTSA issue a recall to inspect all Bounders from year 2012 to 2014 and determine a remedy to increase voltage at the headlamps to a minimum of 12.8v as well as have the DEPO headlamps tested for compliance with FMVSS 108. If photometric requirements are not met Fleetwood should issue a recall to replace headlamps with compliant units.

Thanks to everyone who posted to this thread offering suggestions and encouragement. It is greatly appreciated!

[Brian W]

Quick update. Received a letter today from ARG. They thanked me for my detailed letter and said they had forwarded the letter to the engineering department and the compliance department for analysis, response and recommendations. It says as soon as they complete their investigation the VP of Customer Experience will respond back to me accordingly.

We shall see.


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[frankdamp]

From my perspective as an emigrant from the UK, I've always found US auto headlights to be grossly deficient. On my first US-made car (a 1965 Falcon) they were so dim, I drive slowly for fear the wind would blow them out!

My 1958 Austin A-40 had headlights with 96-Watt main beams and 72-watt low beams. The Falcon's were 48W and 48W.

I heven't checked the RV's lights, since we never drive after dark, but going through mountain tunnels, I can tell they're not much good, even when I switch from DRLs to headlights on.

One problem I see with the RV is that the plastic lenses are discolored.

[mojoracing]

Brian, GREAT JOB! Thank you for tackling a problem that I do not have the time to do. I think we all agree the lighting is grossly deficient. I personally like your first letter as it lays out the problem for the average owner much better but Im sure due to restrictions in volume as well as agencies wanting complaints to be concise and to the point the edited version is more than adequate. Please send me copies of the other letters when you get a chance.

[Brian W]

Thanks, sent you the letter. Let me know if you didn't get it.


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[WOODYDEL]

I've been to court many times. They only believe the "experts" opinion. How about grabbing a state trooper or local police officer to explain your problem. Ask him to take a ride with you at night. See if he thinks your driving would be unsafe. Just a first step I might take. You could have a qualified state inspector evaluate your problem. Fleetwood is not the expert. They assemble parts. Many times they don't know what parts are in your vehicle. Happened twice on my 2014.

I consider my lights to be dim. I'm not new to motorhome driving at night. I'm thinking to use my own solution. Looked at Hella 90mm LED driving lights. Would have been willing to make holes in the fiberglas. $550 each made no sense.

I'm still evaluating but Hella Micro FF Driving lights might be my choice if I can satisfy myself with the look. Would like round Hella lights however to mount flush with the body.

By myself without court or lawyers was successful against Thor on my 2007 Four Winds Hurricane. I proved the rear axle would be forever overloaded. I bought it one year old so I wasn't even the original owner. Anyway they offered a check for $700 to settle and I had to agree to not sue in writing. I took the money. The motorhome chassis never gave me a bit of trouble and I never did anything to fix it. Traded it in after 5 years of long distance travelling.

Keep up your efforts. Maybe they will buy you some of those Fancy Hella lights I mentioned.

[Brian W]

Woodydel,

I have one of the top automotive lighting experts in the world assisting me. He is an expert witness, editor of the premier automotive lighting magazine, consults for the DOT, NHTSA, and European countries on automotive lighting laws.

While I have been extremely happy with Fleetwood customer service, it was a blunt statement by one of their reps that pushed me to take it as far as I have. It was the straw that broke the camels back.
I have not discussed that conversation on here, but will say I was incredibly offended.

I will be at the Fleetwood service center in three weeks and I will be an active participant when they are looking at my lights and taking readings. I have directions from the lighting consultant on how and what they should be testing and what minimum readings are acceptable.

Brian


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[NLOVNIT]

Thank you for all you're doing/going through on this, Brian. As Bounder owners who regularly drive at night (we prefer the less traffic on roads, plus it's cooler in summer driving at night) I know our lights are inadequate...& ours is a 2006. I will definitely have Dave test w/his voltmeter & see what our readings are.

Lori-

[SarahW]

Originally Posted by NLOVNIT

Thank you for all you're doing/going through on this, Brian.

What Lori said!