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Old 06-01-2014, 08:16 PM   #71
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Been doing a lot of thinking and researching and think my path forward is becoming clear. I simply can't accept what I consider to be a safety issue and spend my hard owned money to get these lights safe without at least trying to make as many people as possible aware of this situation. I would ask those who say what's the big deal, to consider if your tires that came with your new coach had a date code that was 6 1/2 years old. It falls under the 7 years so technically it's a good tire. My guess is people would be freaking out and demanding new tires. So what's the difference? They are both safety items. To quote Daniel Stern "Not possible to see well with these lamps even without the large voltage drop present in every RV headlamp system I've ever scrutinized." Sorry, I simply can not and will not accept that without at least making a little noise.

I have researched the cost of getting these right based on Daniel Sterns recommendations. For OEM headlights, relays, proper wiring harness, and bulbs the cost is over $700.00 just for the parts. Add in the cost of installation and you are looking around $900.00. The funniest thing I found today was the Fleetwood replacement cost for our headlights would be $740.00. Remember, as previously posted those same lights from DEPO (which may have a counterfeit DOT certification) was $144.00. My guess is Fleetwood pays a whole lot less per unit.

If I went aftermarket with JW Speaker or Hella projectors, which are street legal, the cost is about the same as OEM replacement. In other words for street legal lights that properly light the road I am looking at $900.00.

My plan forward is to determine my voltage drop. Tried it today, but I was short on time and didn't want to remove the lamp assembly to properly do the test as outlined by Daniel Stern. I am going to find a company that has a beam setter to have my lights aligned. I am going to also get documentation of the condition found. I am hoping to hear back from the University of Memphis Optical Engineering Department. I know it's a long shot, but I want to explore all options.

Once I have everything in place I am then going to file a complaint with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. I will also be writing letters to the CEO of Allied Specialty Vehicles, CEO of Allied Recreation Group (he is also President of Fleetwood RV), and the Vice President of Customer Service for Allied Recreation Group.

Once that is done I will be writing letters to the Recreation Vehicle Industry Association and assorted RV publications.

I love my Bounder and think Fleetwood Customer Service is awesome. This is one area though that I think that Fleetwood has dropped the ball. Thanks for everyone's help, ideas, and support in this thread.

Brian




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Old 06-02-2014, 12:09 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian W View Post
Hey Paul,

Thanks for the compliment, but I really enjoy this kind of thing. I have already learned more than I ever thought I would about headlights. I agree on the Bounder, I ABSOLUTELY love it.

As far as the squeaky microwave, yes I get the occassional squeak. My biggest noise maker is the fireplace glass rattling and it's a easy fix, I just forget to fix it once I get to the CG or back home.

Brian


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This will fix the micro squeak!
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:17 AM   #73
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I think I will try these bulbs Amazon.com: Philips 9012 Standard Halogen Headlight Bulb, Pack of 1: Automotive. That Daniel recommended. I mean under $50 and 88 percent more light. That sounds like a "good enough", best bang for the buck fix. Great info
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:54 AM   #74
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Paul, LV_RV
I took wood door shims and drove them up between wall and microwave. It's loose from the wall. Permanent fix and nothing visible. Copy your squeak complaint and comments to a new thread and don't bury them in a headlight posting. That way others can find them.
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:19 AM   #75
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Phew, a lot has happened over the weekend.

Here is a thread where I posted the wiring diagrams for my '04 F53.

I haven't been able to find a diagram for a '14 chassis, or even anything newer than '06 when a lot of other changes took place.

In that other thread I detailed the path the current takes to get to my lights:

"Fuse 1.27> Main light switch > Multifunction switch > Headlight relay > Central Junction box > Headlights. I count 14 connections and three sets of switch contacts. Probably MANY feet of wire, some as small as 18 gauge (each light) or 14 gauge (both lights)."

(The ground side was fairly direct. And my Winnebago wiring was just a few feet of pretty good gauge wiring added to the Ford wiring. Also worth noting is that the "headlight relay" mentioned above shouldn't be confused with an added relay. This relay is part of the DRL system, it's just a switch, one more set of contacts to add resistance.)

I'll mention again. Relays and some fat wire REALLY helped mine. There is a battery wire right on the right side of the radiator (on my '04 at least) and a relay bank right above the radiator where I added a Ford relay. I used like 4' of wire. Reading schematics and untangling wiring bundles took WAY more time than the actual new wiring.

And one last thing....remember....resistance is futile. (Sorry for that, couldn't resist.)
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:45 AM   #76
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And wouldn't you know it, I've been watching for Grand Cherokees of that vintage in parking lots to look at the lights. Found one in my office complex on the way back from lunch, where I wrote the post above.

Anyway.

Production Chrysler/Jeep headlights have markings on the lower edge, inboard side, down on the parking light part. There's "SAE" and "VOR" (aiming info). At the end it has "99WJ [Chrysler Logo] CO". Do your lights have that? Knockoffs COULD have that, but I'd doubt it. Couldn't find a supplier logo, some do that, some don't.
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:50 AM   #77
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And one last thing....remember....resistance is futile. (Sorry for that, couldn't resist.)

In the words of John "Bluto" Blutarsky:

Over? Did you say 'over?' Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell, no!



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Old 06-02-2014, 10:55 AM   #78
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Get a voltmeter and measure the voltage at your headlights when they are illuminated. Many RV's are wired badly with long wire runs from the battery to the headlights, resulting in poor voltage. If your wiring is bad, it doesn't matter what bulb you use, it will be dim. I re-wired my 2003 Beaver using relays to transmit better power to the headlamps, and the voltage went from 11.2 volts to 12.5. It made a world of difference in brightness. So check your voltage at the headlights with them turned on, and see if low voltage is your problem.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:23 PM   #79
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Wiring mis-sized

Quote:
Originally Posted by tderonne View Post
Phew, a lot has happened over the weekend.

Here is a thread where I posted the wiring diagrams for my '04 F53.

I haven't been able to find a diagram for a '14 chassis, or even anything newer than '06 when a lot of other changes took place.

In that other thread I detailed the path the current takes to get to my lights:

"Fuse 1.27> Main light switch > Multifunction switch > Headlight relay > Central Junction box > Headlights. I count 14 connections and three sets of switch contacts. Probably MANY feet of wire, some as small as 18 gauge (each light) or 14 gauge (both lights)."

(The ground side was fairly direct. And my Winnebago wiring was just a few feet of pretty good gauge wiring added to the Ford wiring. Also worth noting is that the "headlight relay" mentioned above shouldn't be confused with an added relay. This relay is part of the DRL system, it's just a switch, one more set of contacts to add resistance.)

I'll mention again. Relays and some fat wire REALLY helped mine. There is a battery wire right on the right side of the radiator (on my '04 at least) and a relay bank right above the radiator where I added a Ford relay. I used like 4' of wire. Reading schematics and untangling wiring bundles took WAY more time than the actual new wiring.

And one last thing....remember....resistance is futile. (Sorry for that, couldn't resist.)
Yes. This is the question I've been asking. It appears 16 gauge wire is used and there are multiple connections. As mentioned earlier, it's normal to get 1.2 volt drops across 30 feet of wire using 16 ga at the current levels mentioned. As you say, 1 volt or more can affect brightness.
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:50 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tderonne View Post
And wouldn't you know it, I've been watching for Grand Cherokees of that vintage in parking lots to look at the lights. Found one in my office complex on the way back from lunch, where I wrote the post above.

Anyway.

Production Chrysler/Jeep headlights have markings on the lower edge, inboard side, down on the parking light part. There's "SAE" and "VOR" (aiming info). At the end it has "99WJ [Chrysler Logo] CO". Do your lights have that? Knockoffs COULD have that, but I'd doubt it. Couldn't find a supplier logo, some do that, some don't.

At the bottom of mine is this DEPO 333-1144 SAE-AHRIPP2-99 DOT VOR RH.

Just to be clear, it was Mr. Stern who questioned the DOT authenticity. I looked up several things and one of them is that DEPO is CAPA certified. That doesn't necessarily mean anything in regards to quality since CAPA certifies millions of parts. The only true way to determine good photometrics of the headlamp assembly is to use a goniophotometer. HaHa, see how far I've gotten into this?

Unfortunately, I don't have a goniophotometer laying around the house. I am heading out this morning to check voltage drop and look for someone that uses a photometric headlight aimer so I can get my headlamp alignment checked. I also want to try to find the CAPA seal that should be somewhere on the headlamp assembly. Per the CAPA website the top part of the seal should be on the assembly.

I have also read that DEPO headlights are often counterfeited, and sold as legitimate DEPO headlights. So, if my research is correct, no CAPA seal means not legit. Here is an example of a CAPA seal.


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Old 06-03-2014, 06:04 AM   #81
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Brian, in short, Thank You!! I too have a 14 Bounder35k and yes, our lighting is horrendous! The other day I went from a highway with streetlights to one without and I literally could not see the lanes on the road. It is definitely unsafe. I often drive with the brights on just to be able to barely see. Guess what? I never get flashed by oncoming traffic. In years past, I was an ASE certified mechanic. I am handy with a multi meter so any help I can offer will be given. I think the answer is simple. It seems the lights do not comply with government mandates. I assume that legally a company has to comply so your last post where you speak about legal ramifications should be an easy slam dunk and yes a BIG deal for the Fleetwood. I thought my old Gulfstream was bad till I experienced the headlights on my Bounder. I literally have almost no light in some circumstances. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to investigate the issue. Its obvious the headlights supplied with our coaches are not compliant on many levels.
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:08 AM   #82
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I have a goniphotometer. Well almost, I have a buddy that runs a lighting lab here in Detroit. I've thought asking him to check my lights, but I never have. He tells stories about the cheap copies, so I sort of don't need to test mine. Making a point to Fleetwood might be a good reason to ask him to test some lights though.
A.
And they did use Depo lights (or knockoff Depo ones...yikes). Pretty standard RV practice.
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:42 AM   #83
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My Poor Visibility Headlights

Retiring early in life is nice, it gives me time to do things like this. I have found a couple of companies that will do the photometric testing for around $400.00 with results and reports in 10 days. As I said before, this is not just about my headlights, so I may send mine to see how good the optics really are, or aren't. One of the companies is Intertek.

Time to get up and head out to the MH for some testing.


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Old 06-03-2014, 06:45 AM   #84
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Oh, one last thing before I head out. Doing a search on headlight recalls last night and found out that in 2008 Country Coach had to issue a recall of over 1,000 headlamps due to poor photometry. Hmmmmmmmm.


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