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Old 01-09-2017, 09:38 AM   #1
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Another Project, generator start issue

Since getting this coach, I've had intermittent problems with getting the genset to crank fast enough to start unless I start the coach engine. I thought it was weak house batteries but I've continued to have the issue even after adding six new 6V AGM house batteries. Mytime addressed the same issue by adding a battery behind the front clip and using it to start the genset. It is really only an issue since we rely on our AGS to start the generator if there is a power failure in hot weather when we have left our dogs in the coach.

I checked with Butch Williams and he confirmed that CC ran too small wire from the back to the generator and he agreed that adding a battery up front would be less work than running bigger wire.

So my question....Mytime disconnected the (+) from the house batteries and used it to feed a Trik L Charge for the new battery. Is that really necessary or can I just connect the new battery and leave the house batteries connected? It would seem that the new battery would stay charged from the connection to the house battery circuit which is getting charged when on shore power and when traveling.
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:45 AM   #2
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I'd go the Trik L Charge route, I think you'd boil your smaller battery connected to the existing battery's.

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Old 01-09-2017, 11:52 AM   #3
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before adding anything, i'd test it with a fully charged standalone battery. only see you it works then proceed.

as for the connections between the dedicated battery and the house battery, depends on the type of the battery you are choosing. iirc, you are using agm for house. suppose you get the same type agm for genset starting, you can just hook them up directly, but, you'd need a diode to direct the flow from house to dedicated (let's call it "to latch the charge". trik l charge would have a same effect). (fyi, diode has a voltage drop. good schottky diode has a small v drop, about 0.5-0.7v).

on my coach, i could start the genset by one, or two, or three tries. nevertheless even the house battery was dropped to 12v, i had no problem to start it.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:54 AM   #4
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Sounds like you are installing another battery in line with the feed from the batteries at the rear of the coach? You could do it either way but I would be inclined to take the positive line from the rear to the positive front battery and use the same ground.

I have no problem starting mine after the pre heat is done, usually takes two seconds and it is running
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Old 01-09-2017, 07:30 PM   #5
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Gary, you can't add another battery in the same system with the house batteries.
I used a battery box, heavy plastic material, purchased some 1 inch flat bar and bolted to the frame of the slide out, the battery does not weight, probably about 40lbs, not an issue with weight, use an automobile battery.
I can send you more photos if needed., mine has worked like a charm.
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BTW.. don't know how much pressure you run in tag, but if you can reduce pressure a little, it will relieve some weight off the front axle.
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Old 01-09-2017, 07:43 PM   #6
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I purchased the cables, but can't think now, from where, seem like they were about 48 inches long. The battery goes in and out with the generator, so don't have to worry about extra slack.
I will check the battery in the morning and get the brand and CCA.
I checked with Kubota to get the CCA, when I installed.
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Old 01-09-2017, 07:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mytime View Post
I purchased the cables, but can't think now, from where, seem like they were about 48 inches long. The battery goes in and out with the generator, so don't have to worry about extra slack.
I will check the battery in the morning and get the brand and CCA.
I checked with Kubota to get the CCA, when I installed.
Thanks.

I am running 90 psi in my tags. I need to check the load inflation tables again and see if I can lower that.

Did you use a Trik L Start?

Ultra TRIK-L-START Starting Battery Charger/Maintainer
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:02 PM   #8
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"Gary, you can't add another battery in the same system with the house batteries."

Please educate me as to why not
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:28 AM   #9
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Several issues with adding batteries together in a bank, they. All should be the exact age, mfg, and series, purchased at the same time, there are few exceptions., plus you draw from one you draw from all, your issue would not change, the additional battery would be at the same state of charge as your existing batteries. You cannot use the existing cable in no way to connect the new battery. The new battery will be a stand alone battery, it does not know the other batteries. The trickle charger is the bridge between the separated batteries.
Works exactly the same as your house batteries and coach batteries, you have a trickle charger there.
I think I used a 5amp, 3 wire.
Clear as mud right.
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:56 AM   #10
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Q**Can I parallel old and new batteries within one bank?
Q **Can I parallel different size batteries within one bank?

A**Although the conventional recommendations are not to mix old and new, good and bad, big and small, etc. in parallel, those misconceptions actually only relate to batteries in SERIES. You should understand the reasons and make up your own mind. The truth is that you can parallel just about anything. The downside is, if they are not matched, one battery (the newer) will tend to carry more of the load and the total capacity will be slightly less than the sum of the individual capacities. If your new battery has a capacity of 100AH and the old one still had 45AH left, then in parallel you will get something around 145AH, where had they both been new 200AH would fit in the space, but it will help and it will work.

When the old one eventually dies, it will drag the new one down but this happens whenever two batteries are in parallel and one dies, the only difference here is it is going to happen sooner than it would had they both been brand new. So big deal, you gained some residual use out of the old one and the new one will not be permanently damaged - just charge it up again.

The bottom line is the batteries in parallel provide more power - never less - than either one on its own - it just may not be the "ideal" way to do it.

Q**Won't the smaller battery get overcharged if put in parallel with a large one?

A** The whole process of charging batteries in parallel is naturally self regulating, naturally governed by terminal voltage and current flowing through the internal equivalent resistances. For simplification, each battery can be considered as a perfect battery that holds the charge combined with a series resistor representing the internal resistance, and a parallel resistance representing the self-discharge leakage current.

Lets say you have a charging source dumping out say 100 amps. If you have 4 batteries in parallel sharing this source the distribution of the charge current is governed by those internal voltages and internal resistances. From Ohm's law, the charging current that flows into each battery is the voltage divided by the resistance. In this case the voltage is the charging voltage arriving at the terminals minus the actual internal voltage divided by the series resistance of the battery. A discharged battery is going to put a larger voltage differential over the internal resistance so more current will flow to it. A charged battery is going to put less voltage drop across the internal resistance so it will take less or none of the available charging current. A large plate battery which has a correspondingly lower internal resistance will demand more current because of this lower resistance. A small motorbike battery in parallel will have a high internal resistance and demand very little current.

All these demands for current result in a common voltage on the parallel circuit which is what the alternator or charger sees. None of the batteries will ever be "overcharged" as a result because the charging voltage is controlled. Even the smallest battery will only be seeing the same voltage so it is like the other batteries are not there. If you suddenly removed all the big ones and left just the tiny bike battery on the 100 amp alternator, the regulator in the alternator cuts the current back to a level that limits charging to a safe level.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:04 AM   #11
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This is the battery I installed 3^20/2013, haven't touched it since.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:09 AM   #12
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My finger was too fast..
Here goes: Optima, 34, 800 CCA RT, 8002-002 GNB800S, OPT8002-02, WEIGHT 31LBS.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:20 AM   #13
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Twinboat, you are so eloquent. Just technical enough but hopefully not enough to lose the readers. I wish I had that talent.

I usually break it down to marbles in a bucket. Marbles are the amps. The bigger the bucket, the more marbles it can hold.

I would not hesitate to use the existing wiring except for making sure there is a heavy breaker at each end of that wire. Any shorts along that feed will protect both battery banks.

You could also use the Trik-L-start for normal situations and add a solenoid controlled by your emergency/aux start button that would bring the large cable directly to the generator battery. That too is probably as clear as mud.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:56 AM   #14
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Twinboat, you are so eloquent. Just technical enough but hopefully not enough to lose the readers. I wish I had that talent.

I usually break it down to marbles in a bucket. Marbles are the amps. The bigger the bucket, the more marbles it can hold.

I would not hesitate to use the existing wiring except for making sure there is a heavy breaker at each end of that wire. Any shorts along that feed will protect both battery banks.

You could also use the Trik-L-start for normal situations and add a solenoid controlled by your emergency/aux start button that would bring the large cable directly to the generator battery. That too is probably as clear as mud.
I can't take the credit for that write up. That is a cut & paste from Yandina.com.

Years of research, because I lived on batteries for 5 years and still do 6 months a year, have kept me searching for infomation on the best way to do it.

Your marble analogy is good. Just remember to throw some sand in the bucket every time you take the marbles out and replace them. As the battery ages it holds less marbles.

Agree with the breaker. There should already be one near the original batteries, protecting from a short in the long cable. But now with a battery at the generator end, there should be one there, protecting for the same thing, the other direction.
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