Automated Charge Failure

[GypsyTurtle]

Ok... I've googled and I've tried all the diagnostics I can think of.
1989 Country Coach Concept
Lately it won't stay running. It will start fine and then between 5 and 15 seconds it will shut off with a verbal message saying Automated Charge Failure. If it's a fresh start it will run for about 10-15 seconds. If it's a 2nd attempt it will only last a few seconds.
The starting batteries are around 12.57 volts and usually kept disconnected when not in use.
I've just replaced the batter isolator that divides the alternator's current between the starting batteries and domestic batteries. Same result.
The only thing I can think of now is to remove the battery tray and dive deep to check on cable connections. Corrosion at the battery terminals perhaps.

Anyone have this problem occur? Ideas?
Thanks,
Jeff

[IASM]

One thing is not clear is your post.
Is it just the engine shutting down with no changes to the dash gauges and lights or are you seeing the dash and everything going down as if the switch was shut off?

[GypsyTurtle]

Just the engine shuts off. The dash still remains active in the normal way. The only abnormal thing up by the driver’s seat is the audible message that says “automated charge failure“.

[hkuhnert]

This is just me just diagnosing the issue with a lot of automotive knowledge and experience, but no real in depth knowledge of exactly how it works with our diesel pushers. I've come to know my ISC 8.3 pretty well, but not sure what you have in your coach.

I assume that if the alternator was not charging this would not cause a shut down, but merely a warning. But, if the voltage regulator went out and/or the alternator was pushing more than 14.6 volts to the system that the engine might shut down with an over-voltage issue to protect it's electronics.

My next move would be to remove the alternator cable from the system or check the outgoing alternator voltage (after the voltage regulator if it is not built into the alternator) to see if it has excessive voltage. The 5 seconds you mention that it runs seem like just enough time for the alternator charge circuit to kick in.

[wolfe10]

Originally Posted by hkuhnert

My next move would be to remove the alternator cable from the system.

To not start the engine with the alternator B+ disconnected-- good way to blow diodes.


If you are interested in determining voltage, just start the engine, raise RPM to around 1,100 and check voltage at the chassis battery bank. Assuming the battery banks are not deeply discharged you will know voltage.


If you have a diode-based battery isolator, voltage on the B+ will be about .7 VDC higher than at the battery.

[IASM]

I to am not familiure with your coach warning system but it sounds like the engine dies due to fuel or some not electrical issue then the alternator stops charging engaging the warning. how sound is your fuel system?

[TQ60]

Is this a control to use the generator to charge the batteries while parked and not the drive engine?

If it is controlling the generator, look for the connection for the monitor wires.

The control panel is monitoring battery voltage.

When it drops to a certain voltage, it starts the generator to charge the batteries.

It then is expecting the voltage to rise as the charger should be running.

Also, determine what is the battery charger, if it is not working then the control panel is telling you this.

[GypsyTurtle]

Ok.. further testing has shown that my alternator's exciter wire is not receiving the 12+V it should. Tracing that wire back from the alternator brings it to the little pneumatic air cylinder that actuates the fuel shutoff or governor shutoff on top of the engine. Detroit 6V92 "silver".
From there I traced the wire to that cylinder down to the Rear Run Box to the center post of the Front - Rear start switch. The switch works in that I can start either from the front of the RV or rear depending on the flipping of the switch.

So... why is power not making it through the wire to the air cylinder and hence to the alternator? It has continuity so it's not rat-chewed.

me

[deandec]

Can you run a cheater wire to determine if that wire is the problem?

[GypsyTurtle]

Good idea. I tried that yesterday. Maybe it wasn’t the perfect jumper, but it did give it a power and it started like normal, but then shut off after about seven seconds. The air solenoid still extended like it does when it’s not having power. And the solenoid Actuated the governor stop lever. So, perhaps the module brain protection thingy is overriding and cutting it off still. I don’t know. Back to the drawing board. My Volkswagen bus is so much simpler.

[dons2346]

Somewhere I read that a oil pressure switch has to close before the alternator will come on line. Also if the pressure switch will not close, the ECM assumes there is no oil pressure and will shut the motor down. Just another thought

[Rsponsford]

Originally Posted by GypsyTurtle

Ok.. further testing has shown that my alternator's exciter wire is not receiving the 12+V it should. Tracing that wire back from the alternator brings it to the little pneumatic air cylinder that actuates the fuel shutoff or governor shutoff on top of the engine. Detroit 6V92 "silver".
From there I traced the wire to that cylinder down to the Rear Run Box to the center post of the Front - Rear start switch. The switch works in that I can start either from the front of the RV or rear depending on the flipping of the switch.

So... why is power not making it through the wire to the air cylinder and hence to the alternator? It has continuity so it's not rat-chewed.

me

Maybe you’ve have gotten it fixed by now but I just saw this post. I would suspect the problem is fuel related. You have a pre-DDEC two stroke Detroit and once it’s running it only needs a fuel source to keep running. That’s good news because once you locate the problem the fix will almost certainly be simple.

Try looking at the fuel shutoff solenoid. That would be my first guess. Blocked fuel filters are common. How long has it been since the last fuel filter change. If you change the fuel filters be sure to prime them before installation. You will also want to change the filters one at a time and run the engine in between to make sure there’s no air in the line.

As you mentioned you should have roughly 12V on the alternator’s IGN terminal when the front or rear ignition is in the ON position. If you are not getting voltage on the IGN terminal then you can run a new permanent wire from wire #34E the connecting block in the rear run box to the IGN post on the alternator. Basically, the IGN terminal on the alternator is the “on/off” switch for the alternator.

In your case, I don’t think you have an alternator issue. The aural warning you’re hearing is saying “alternator charge failure” and is accompanied by a red lighted caution text on the panel to the left of the dash gauges where all the warning lights are located. This is a normal warning message you will always hear with the ignition on and the engine not running because, of course, the alternator is offline. If the engine is running and you get this message then the alternator offline and your chassis batteries are discharging. In any case, an alternator failure will not shut down your engine.

Although I don’t think this is causing the motor shutdown, you should be aware your Detroit has an Engine Protection Module (EPM) which will shut the motor down after 30 seconds under certain conditions. Items that will cause the EPM to engage are things that are potentially catastrophic to the motor; low oil pressure, high coolant temp, etc. To prevent an engine shutdown where you feel it would be unsafe there is an override foot switch on the floor all the way to the left. If you hold down the switch the EPM will not shut down the motor. When you release the switch the 30 second timer starts over and will shut the motor down if the condition still exists.

Hope this helps.

Russ

[GypsyTurtle]

I wish it was fixed - You seem pretty knowledgable about my rig. I wish you lived around Los Angeles so I could entice you with a bbq weekend!

It's been quite a while so I replaced the two fuel filters as they were quite black. I primed and restarted and of course after 19-20 seconds the motor turned off. Then came the voice message, "Automated Charge Failure". It makes sense that it delivers that message because the motor shut down.

Is it possible the EPM (engine protection module) is faulty? I'd hate to just keep throwing new things into this rv just by guessing though.

One test I tried was once it started I held the Override button (down on the floor) so it would stay running. It seemed to run no problem. Perhaps I let it run for a minute or maybe a bit less but as soon as I let go of the switch the motor died.

Jeff

[deandec]

Once the engine is running on my 1995 mechanical diesel, removing electricity will not stop the engine.

I have to stop the fuel flow to kill the engine.

That is normally done by the fuel shutdown solenoid when electricity is removed by the ignition switch being turned to off.

I do get the occasional alternator alert when I turn off the ignition. I have not paid attention to that alert because I know the alternator is not spinning.

So, I would suspect your EPM, your engine oil sensor, or your coolant sensor could be shutting down the engine. I suspect the air filter could trigger a shutdown also.

Your floor override switch does override the EPM shutdown for enough time to pull the rig to the side of the road when a shutdown occurs.

If the chassis battery or alternator do not keep the transmission supplied with electricity, that does trigger the EPM safety shutdown, I kind of remember.

I have worked around that issue by jumping the chassis battery from the house battery while it is being charged by the generator. Then the alternator is not needed.

Another possibility is that the fuel shut down solenoid, if you have one, will not stay in the Run position once the engine is started.

Our fuel solenoid has three positions. Start, Run, and closed.

I have had to use a wire to hold the solenoid shaft in the start position to use the engine if the fuel solenoid is not working correctly. Then I have to release the wire to shut it down.

Ooops.. I should have read Rsponsford's reply before posting. He said it better than I did.

It sounds like you are getting closer to a solution.