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YC1 · 02-28-2016, 01:48 PM

Once the problem has been found you desperately need to clean all connections you can find. This is trouble waiting to happen.

The ZIP cord/ lamp cord, that is the small wire that is combined and split on the end most likely goes to some other solenoid that simply shorts those two wires together.

Based on that picture it appears they are sending battery voltage out on one leg of the ZIP cord and then return it to the small terminal which would then engage the starter solenoid.

Someone may have had a temporary wire on the empty terminal. You would just find a 12 volt source and apply it to that wire and it will turn over if the solenoid and starter are working.

twinboat · 02-28-2016, 02:14 PM

I don't agree that it is lamp cord, it looks like 12 gauge wire that is factory installed.

But it does, or should, go to a magnetic switch ( solenoid ) like referenced in the first picture in post # 52. You mentioned one in the top of your battery compartment.

This is how they all are wired. It eliminates the voltage drop, in the wire running to the key switch and back.

Get some volt readings and get back with results.

Nice pictures !!

RobRoy · 02-29-2016, 08:44 AM

I question that we see all the wires to that solenoid. (that is not another wire terminal that I see in that pic ..on top of the solenoid ? and is hard to see? )

There has to be another wire to that solenoid to activate it.

The wire you show as going to ground appears to be factory. The faston wire connector with the missing wire? That was possibly a work around for that ground wire and is bad ….or a work around for a voltage drop issue of some kind.

I would jumper a ground wire from the wire connector (with no wire in it) directly to the battery ground and see what happens and report back and report back.

If it still doenst crank we will need some voltage readings from all the terminals and perhaps some voltage drop readings also on the starter case and the ground terminals.

Happy Hunting

twinboat · 02-29-2016, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobRoy

I question that we see all the wires to that solenoid. (that is not another wire terminal that I see in that pic ..on top of the solenoid ? and is hard to see? )

There has to be another wire to that solenoid to activate it.

The wire you show as going to ground appears to be factory. The faston wire connector with the missing wire? That was possibly a work around for that ground wire and is bad ….or a work around for a voltage drop issue of some kind.

I would jumper a ground wire from the wire connector (with no wire in it) directly to the battery ground and see what happens and report back and report back.

If it still doenst crank we will need some voltage readings from all the terminals and perhaps some voltage drop readings also on the starter case and the ground terminals.

Happy Hunting

Not good advice.

The terminal with the extra ring terminal is the positive wire of the coil. It gets positive power from the remote solenoid.

The ground wire is tucked up in the left part of the picture. That wire runs from the hidden terminal to the back of the starter motor. If you zoom in it can be seen opposite the one in question.

I have handled hundred and maybe thousands of this type of starter.

Your suggestion will cause a direct short to ground when the remote solenoid is activated.

Zoom in to the first picture in post #52. The wire layout is there.

YC1 · 02-29-2016, 09:56 AM

Ditto Twinboat. It is being controlled by a positive voltage and not a ground.

To zoom here is a suggestion. Hold your Ctrl key down and then tap the + key.

I too think someone was doing a workaround or just wanted to have a temporary "remote start" function.

It is hazardous to do this because of moving parts and sparks but one can actually take a jumper from the large battery wire and touch the post that has the empty connector. If you happen to touch the bare wire of the jumper when you connect it you can get a bit of a non lethal jolt that can cause skinned knuckles or bumped heads.

RobRoy · 02-29-2016, 11:47 AM

I stand corrected!

I thought that he stated that that wire ran to a chassis ground and IF that is not the was the case ...if not I stand corrected

.. otherwise .

he stated this : “ Curious that one of the 2 wires coming off the rear of the single stud on the starter connects to frame ground (also shown).”

I thought he was talking about the terminal with the two faston connectors one missing the wire and that other one was the one that grounded to the chassis ground.

I now see that. Yes that is indeed the ground cable that he was talking about and not what appears to be the 12g wire coming off the stud with the missing wire.

So starting over ….. The most likely cause is as stated the suspect missing wire and that is most likely + positive feed to activate the starter solenoid.

That being the cases and as stated earlier most likely another aftermarket remote function scab wiring job that has failed ( by the looks) …but why wont the starter crank from the key even with that remote wire disconnected ?

( perhaps that is missing wire is from the ignition switch

…. I was assuming it was from the remote

So maybe put 12vdc to that terminal with the missing wire and see the results?

IMO by the looks of the pics posted that whole wire job is a POS job a once the problem is resolved it needs to be re-done with weather proof sealed connectors.

Sorry for any confusion that I may have caused.

YC1 · 02-29-2016, 02:06 PM

Yeah it is a disaster waiting to happen but I suggest the problem needs to be diagnosed before doing any cleaning. I hate curing problems and not knowing why. And in some cases additional problems can be induced into the equation. Been doing this 40+ years so I know how to shoot myself in the foot.

RobRoy · 02-29-2016, 03:13 PM

It appears that with just with a test light and a jumper wire a lot can be eliminated and pretty fast.

I now want to know where that wire is also...but would like to know what happens when you put 12vdc to that empty connector terminal stud, that will be telling.

I dont want to to be chasing for some wire that was possibly used with some old defunct alarm system or whatever and not used any more....... Im sure that is not the case, but ya never know?

If that is wired as in twin boats pic. I like the idea of the thermal limiter used on the starter controlling the ground on the magnetic switch for starter motor protection.

wch1940 · 03-01-2016, 07:00 AM

I was able to get the engine to crank by jumpering power to the starter solenoid
so at least I know it is not the starter or the starter solenoid. Next step is to have some
help, someone to turn the key while I check for voltage at the small start solenoid.
I have gotten bad info from Monaco/Beaver. There is no other solenoid in the frame rail area.
The 2 large wires on the back of the starter go to battery neg. and frame ground. They
also told me that the ecm was located on the engine bulkhead when it is actually mounted above and behind the starter. I pray I do not have to remove the ecm to have it checked.

wch1940 · 03-01-2016, 07:04 AM

The missing wire in the picture was my doing. I put a jumper on the terminal and it was
not crimped properly.

YC1 · 03-01-2016, 08:32 AM

If safe to do so, turn your ignition key to the run position and jumper the starter solenoid again. If the engine runs then it is not likely the ecm but a loss of voltage for just the start control line. This would be easy to trace back with a fox and hound.

RobRoy · 03-01-2016, 11:19 AM

message deleted

RamiDav · 03-01-2016, 09:34 PM

I have just read this thread and sympathize with the op .

It seems to me we need some back ground , was something worked on
recently , have you been having starter problems ( new ign sw a yr ago )
have you driven it recently or has it been sitting ?
Did you just go out and it wouldn't start ? ?

Early in the thread Jim mentioned a rear start sw and you passed it off
I have seen others that didn't think they had one when they actually did .
If you have one it should be in your manual . On my Windsor when the
engine compartment is open it is on the drivers side about eye level .
As stated previously there are 2 switches , one has 3 positions

1 - Front start
2 - Off
3 - Rear start

As was stated earlier people have accidentally touched that sw pushing it to
the center or rear position causing hours of grief till finally realizing
what happened .

The other sw is simply a push to start sw .

If you really don't have this sw then disregard but please let us know some
recent history

Ray

wch1940 · 03-02-2016, 04:25 AM

Thanks to all for the thought provoking help. A little background follows.
1. No recent work except maintenance,
2. Definitely no rear start switch.
3. Never any problems before except replacing a worn out ignition switch 2 years ago.
4. Coach had been sitting for about 8 weeks (outside)
5. Periodically (about every 2 weeks) the house and coach batteries were
brought to full charge by running the genset and engine. That is, until the engine
would not even crank. Genset runs fine so I can keep the engine batteries up using
a portable charger.

A side note: I learned an expensive lesson 3 years ago, I trusted that the disconnect switch really disconnected the batteries. Much to my chagrin the next time I went
to start the genset I found that all 6 of my brand new batteries had frozen and split. I
installed a knjfe switch and have had no problem since.