03' Sig Electrical Problem

[doublechevy]

From looking and reading your post including posted pictures I would think that #2 breaker breaker is not connected thru inverter As inverter feed is also coming from that panel that provides power to the inverter. therefore # 2 breaker is not on inverter load.

Not sure where inverter loads are connected but only common connections could be load neutrals,

If there were any fault ground to neutral connections that would cause GFCI to trip

If you know how to use an electrical tester remove neutral load connection from GFCI breaker and check for continuity neutral to ground there should be no continuity if there is then start looking for fault connection

[doublechevy]

Since this only happens on when inverter is being used I would look at the inverter or its connections as the source of the problem

[K7JV]

Major power installations, substations and/or equipment often has a differential relay present and active. It looks to see that the net sum of the currents on each of the phases always equals zero. What come in equals what goes out. In other words the sum of the currents in all lines out has to equal the sum of the currents in all lines in. A GFI does the same job. It needs to see the same current in the hot conductor (black) as it sees in the neutral conductor (white). If it does not, it sees that as a full or partial ground fault. The third conductor (bare) is the ground for the circuit and it should never carry current, except when a fault does occur. Its primary job is to make sure that the exterior of any equipment plugged into or connected to a circuit is always at the same potential as everything around it, to eliminate the hazard of getting shocked or electrocuted if something goes wrong in the equipment.

The GFI does not know anything about what's between it and the ultimate power source, including the inverter. It only knows what is leaving it and going to the load(s) on the branch circuit. For what he is experiencing to happen, something must be happening, 4:10 after energizing it (FROM THE INVERTER) that is allowing a third path somewhere on that branch circuit. In other words some of the current going out on the black wire is not coming back on the white wire, but rather is using the ground wire or the frame of the coach to complete the circuit back to the neutral bus.

One possible explanation of what is happening here would be the existence of a partial or full ground fault somewhere on that branch circuit but that it is faulting to a "ground" that isn't actually electrically connected to the ground bus in that breaker panel. As such, no current can flow there, but is forced back on the white conductor as it is the only path back. But when the transfer is made in the inverter from shore/generator to the 12VDC input inverter circuitry, a ground path is somehow enabled. (One possibility would be a ground fault to the frame of the slide, but the slide may have a high impedance to the INVERTER panel, but a low impedance to the inverter, itself.) But curiously, I'm thinking that the alternate path is not getting enabled until 4:10 after it the inverter circuitry is energized. Once it is enabled, some of the current on that branch circuit takes that path, and the GFI can then sense the difference and trips the breaker.

If it were me, I would get one of those really inexpensive outlet testing modules that you plug into an outlet and the three lights illuminate to show the status of the hot leg, the neutral and the ground. I'm almost suspecting that the bare conductor in the Romex leaving the breaker panel for that branch is open, or connected with a very high resistance at either the INVERTER breaker panel ground bus or at one of the downstream outlets or devices. Those RV receptacles are amazingly "hokie", if you will. I am now suspecting that to be the problem.

The 4:10 thing is still a huge puzzle!! I am looking forward to what he finds out.

[doublechevy]

A GFCI breaker will not tolerated any ground to neutral connection regardless of current flow in the circuit that could create an imbalance in the circuit

If it was being created by an imbalance flow in the circuit then it would also trip when on shore power and generator. The inverter and its circuits are the only thing when introduced into the circuit causing the tripping

[doublechevy]

As a possible test to see what is happening Try this

Shut inverter off
shut #2 breaker off
disconnect load neutral from #2 circuit breaker
connect voltage tester from disconnected load neutral Ckt #2 to panel neutral
with voltage tester read voltage to neutral in panel If zero reading proceed to next step
turn on inverter read voltage from load neutral of circuit #2 to panel neutral if you see 120 V then your inverter ckts are connected to a common neutral point

Remember the #2 circuit is not connected thru the inverter but they share the same common point neutral so you might have lost the neutral point in the inverter than the current flow in the inverter circuit may be using the neutral connection from breaker #2 as a path.

not familiar with inverter circuitry to trouble shoot any further

BE CAREFULL IN DEALING WITH LIVE CIRCUITS AND THERE CURRENT PATHS

[cavie]

Originally Posted by Bsmiddy

HI Vito,

I have attached the other breaker box photos.

When I disconnect shore power and just run off the inverter the breaker trips. I have timed it four times now and literally to the second 4:10 each time.

So do you think I could just get rid of the gfi breaker?

Thanks,

Brian

The #2 breaker that is tripping is not a GFI breaker. It is a standard 20 amp SQ breaker that feeds the GFI circuit and the GFI outlet wherever it is. Most likely in the bathroom. It is the first stop in the circuit. A GFI breaker has a yellow test button on it. The Breaker protects the wiring from overloads. The GFI outlet protects the wiring from Ground faults. The GFI outlet will not reset if the breaker is tripped so it will be easy to find. The GFI outlet is controlling all those that you have listed. They are all within 6' of a water supply. If you are positive that you have checked all the outlets, Find the GFI outlet and trip it. If the breaker trips with the outlet tripped then you have a short someplace between the breaker box and the outlet box and you must find it before it starts a fire.

[doublechevy]

I reread all of your post and then realized the first pictures posted were of your Inverter load distribution panel and #2 GFCI breaker that you already tried replacing,

#2 is actually on the inverter load apologize for providing misleading information to you about resolving your issue

Will keep thinking about it Hope someone can be of better assistance than I

2nd thought

do you have a clamp on amp meter that could measure current draw on that circuit for the 4 min. it takes to trip that could help determine if it is a high amp draw issue or a ground fault issue

[Bsmiddy]

Alright Gentlemen,

The problem I believe has been solved. I appreciate the knowledge passed on by everyone. It's AWESOME that we can come on here and post a problem and/or solutions.

Ok so after reading the last days post and absorbing everything we went step by step.

So Thank You to Vito, Jim, DoubleChevy, Cavie, Outbound, and Wolf10!!!!!!

So when we bought the RV the electric panel was as it was a few days ago. Breaker trips when we travel and only on Inverter. So when I replaced the #2 breaker to no avail I turned to the forum.

Cavie's response made me think in all the spare parts we got with the coach when we bought it, there was a breaker in a box.....but it looked used so I didn't throw it away just in case......well when Cavie said to look for a gfi outlet....I have searched and searched but I can't find one......then it struck me he said the #2 breaker has a white button not a yellow button....ding ding ding.....I dug out the old breaker (yellow button)....replaced the white button with the yellow button....disconnected from shore power, turned the inverter on and let it go for 20 minutes and everything is working and no tripped breaker!!!!

Thank You Again EVERYONE!!

Brian

And yes the first and second round are on me!!!

[cavie]

Originally Posted by Bsmiddy

Alright Gentlemen,

The problem I believe has been solved. I appreciate the knowledge passed on by everyone. It's AWESOME that we can come on here and post a problem and/or solutions.

Ok so after reading the last days post and absorbing everything we went step by step.

So Thank You to Vito, Jim, DoubleChevy, Cavie, Outbound, and Wolf10!!!!!!

So when we bought the RV the electric panel was as it was a few days ago. Breaker trips when we travel and only on Inverter. So when I replaced the #2 breaker to no avail I turned to the forum.

Cavie's response made me think in all the spare parts we got with the coach when we bought it, there was a breaker in a box.....but it looked used so I didn't throw it away just in case......well when Cavie said to look for a gfi outlet....I have searched and searched but I can't find one......then it struck me he said the #2 breaker has a white button not a yellow button....ding ding ding.....I dug out the old breaker (yellow button)....replaced the white button with the yellow button....disconnected from shore power, turned the inverter on and let it go for 20 minutes and everything is working and no tripped breaker!!!!

Thank You Again EVERYONE!!

Brian

And yes the first and second round are on me!!!

So, someone removed an Arc-fault breaker and replaced it with a standard breaker?? ARC-faults are not used in RV's. That means the arc-fault breaker was incorrectly installed where you put the GFI breaker. Is the neutral of the GFI circuit going through the new GFI breaker? I am cornfused

PS, in post #20 I said a GFI breaker has a yellow button. No wonder I'm cornfused! If you did not run the neutral of the circuit thru the GFI breaker that you installed then you still have a ground fault problem that must be fixed.

[pwhittle]

Originally Posted by K7JV

The panel that has the breaker you are tripping is a "downstream" panel from the "MAIN" panel. Here's a brief description of how it all works. Let me refer to the second panel as the "INVERTER PANEL", for this discussion.

TRANSFER SWITCH - Your primary source of 120/240 volt power to the MAIN panel is from either your shore power cable or from your on-board generator. You have a transfer switch that takes care of deciding which of those two it needs to be connected to. It selects whichever one has stable power present. Normally, the "preferred" source is your on-board generator. The only time that "preferred" comes into play is if you start and run your generator while still plugged into shore power. In that case, the transfer switch will select the generator over the shore power.

MAIN PANEL - The load side of your TRANSFER SWITCH feeds the L1 and L2 connections on your MAIN breaker panel. That panel feeds all of your "big" loads that are beyond the load limits of your inverter and includes things like heat pumps, air conditioners, water heaters, electric heating systems, washer/dryers, dish washers, etc. Those load are powered only when you are plugged into shore power OR your on-board generator is operating.

There are two breakers on that panel labeled "INVERTER". That is the AC feed to power your INVERTER and ultimately to its loads.

INVERTER - Like your MAIN panle, your INVERTER can get its power from two sources. It can get it from either the MAIN panel or from your coach battery bank. It has a transfer switch in it, as well, and it does the same job as the one described above. However, instead of choosing between two 120VAC power sources like your TRANSFER SWITCH does, it chooses between the 120VAC power from the MAIN panel OR the 12VDC power from your coach battery bank. In this case, the 120VAC source is the "Preferred" source. If both are available (which is normally the case when you are plugged into shore power), it selects the 120VAC source from the MAIN panel.

INVERTER PANEL - The power for all of the breakers on this panel comes only from the Inverter. These loads are all small enough that they can be normally fed using energy only from the battery bank, within limits, or from the shore/generator source pretty much without limits. (For example, a hair dryer can only be run for a few minutes whereas a cell phone charger could be run for several days before battery voltage would become a problem).

Lastly, the INVERTER in your coach is actually both an inverter and a charger. When 120VAC power is available, it converts a portion of the incoming 120VAC to 12VDC and routes it to your batteries to keep them fully charged, as provided for in your rear run box control scheme. While it is doing this, it is also passing the incoming 120VAC thru its built-in transfer switch to your INVERTER PANEL for those loads. When 120VAC power is NOT available, it inverts the 12VDC to provide 120VAC for the loads on that panel, again thru that built-in transfer switch. So there is a lot of "logic" in the internal control design of your inverter/charger.

OK! That said, whatever is happening to you is strictly related to that #2 breaker circuit. It is a GFI, and like Vito said, those are actually designed to be very particular and as such can be pretty finicky. Note that you have a second GFI breaker in your panel and it is not giving you a problem. That is a valuable hint for where to concentrate your efforts. And, you said that you changed out the #2 breaker and it did not change anything. Therefore, it is extremely likely that whatever is going on is not actually related to the breaker, but rather is related to the wiring in your coach that is fed by that breaker #2.

On our '06 Dynasty, that breaker feeds up to eleven duplex outlets, and nothing else. It does not show any permanently connected devices (except for a wall lamp), only outlets. The drawing shows one under the dinette table, two overhead above the dinette, one under the stove, two in the galley, one at the galley flip-up table, ice maker, one above the galley, one above the bar and one driver-side overhead, plus the wall lamp. It also shows two 6" x 6" boxes with a flex between them that connects the loads on the slide to the supply on the fixed part of the coach.

Outbound had a good suggestion. Coaches as old as ours have seen a lot of vibration and jostling over the years and things do get loose over time. It would not be a bad idea to check and tighten those connections.

Before getting close to any 120VAC wiring in your coach, be sure of three things! One, your shore power is disconnected. Two, your on-board generator is NOT running. Three, your battery is NOT connected to your inverter and/or your inverter is definitely OFF. On our coach, the original design had the inverter tied to the battery side of the disconnect, so it was always connected. I moved that to the load side of the disconnect so that is a fool-proof way to un-power the inverter/charger.

GFI breakers compare the current going thru the power conductor (the black one) with the current going thru the neutral conductor (the white one). If there is any difference in those two currents, it sees that as a ground fault and trips the breaker. Also, for these two currents to be different, there has to be a third path, and that path is "ground".

My thought is that I would first make sure that NOTHING is plugged into anything that could be fed by that circuit. That would narrow the vulnerability to just the wiring, itself. Next I would try to find and get into those two 6" x 6" boxes and make sure all connections are secure.

What is going on with the 4:10 timing???? That's mega-strange!!!! It almost sounds like there is something in your coach fed by that breaker that changes state after being powered on for four minutes and ten seconds. And when it changes state, it completes a circuit that has an internal fault to some degree. I also suspect there is a good chance it would be on the slide, as that is where there is a lot more exposure to motion damage over time. Look at everything in the front of your coach and see if you can identify ANYTHING that might have any kind of timing in it. Maybe a satellite receiver waits 4:10 after powering up to route the signal to the TV??? Maybe a computer waits 4:10 before part of the power supply does something internal to the computer??? Get creative in your thinking. That 4:10 thing is way strange! Don't fixate on it, though, as it could be an incredible coincidence. Sometimes troubleshooting can get derailed by coincidences.

I'm really thinking something either permanently connected to that circuit or powered by an outlet on that circuit is your culprit. And the only thing I can think of that would make there be any difference between inverter supply or shore/generator supply would be the fact that the inverter power isn't as "clean" as those other two sources. It may be pretty rich in harmonics that are fooling the GFI. It may be that the harmonics from the inverter power waveform are what the GFI is seeing. And I'm coming back to the possibility of something that changes state after four minutes and ten seconds that could cause that.

If that is what is happening, then the fix might be to either repair or replace the device that is the culprit or replace the inverter/charger that is causing the problem. It is a possibility that the only problem is in the inverter/charger and that the problem is new. If that is true, then replacement of the inverter/charger may be your only solution. Remember, the power coming out of the inverter/charger to the INVERTER PANEL is either "clean" 120VAC from the shore or the generator, or it is electronically produce somewhat sinusoidal power from the inverter. And it may be that "somewhat" sinusoidal power is less sinusoidal than it used to be.

Keep us posted what you find. But I really do NOT recommend you changing that breaker out for a non-GFI breaker.

i AM SO SORRY THIS IS SO LONG!!! But I hope I clarified some questions you might have.

Where is the Like button?

Paul

[doublechevy]

To unconfuse you Cavie

in original post he had already replaced the existing #2 GFCI breaker with what he thought was a GFCI breaker when in reality it was a AFCI breaker White trip button
He then realized his mistake and replaced the # 2 breaker with the correct GFCI style breaker Yellow trip button. Both GFCI and AFCI require neutral to be circuited thru breaker as you probably know

[Bsmiddy]

DoubleChevy,

Correct when we got the coach the white buttoned breaker was already installed. I just replaced it before posting hoping that fixed the problem. When Cavie had said it should have a yellow button I remembered that when we got the coach we inherited a supply of parts and there was a breaker in there and when I found it.....it has the yellow button....so I swapped it out....and there you go everything seems to be running fine.....I disconnected today just to double check and everything ran fine for 20 minutes whereas before right at 4:09 to 4:10 it would trip.

Brian

[cavie]

I did not realize the breaker in post #1 was an Arcfault because I would never think an RV would have one. Didn't look close enough. I just assumed a standard 20 amp breaker. No wonder I was Cornfusred!!!!!