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Old 03-12-2015, 08:12 PM   #1
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30 amp service - controlling equipment

We have new to us 2008 Monaco Diplomat. Current site is 30 amps. Can you or should I say, how do you control major equipment (2 AC, WH, wash/dry combo)? Smart EMS indicates power status to those units.

Not sure WH on when AC comes on. Don't need WD, so cut breaker off attempting to prevent EMS from providing power to that unit. In a few minutes, hear beeping sound at rear breaker panel. EMS panel seems odd with WD breaker off.

So cut refrig breaker off to see if wired incorrectly. Still have light on Norcold panel. Shouldn't the light go off on refrig. Norcold refrig is not cooling in auto mode; however seems freezer working correctly. Switched to LP to see if refrig cools down.

Why does EMS show WD status on when breaker off?

Thanks for helping a newbie!
Tony
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Old 03-12-2015, 08:29 PM   #2
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Tony,

Is this the EMS that you are referring to?

http://www.rvcruzer.com/docs/EMS800_SvcManual.pdf

If so, then that device will monitor the amount of 30 amp shore power you are using and if you use too much it will automatically start shedding or disconnecting devices in a predetermined order based on your EMS display.

Regarding your fridge you should have two circuit breakers, one for the fridge and one for the ice maker. The one for the fridge is generally not powered when the Inverter is on and activated. That's how your fridge knows when to automatically switch over to LPG when shore power is severed. The ice maker one SHOULD be powered from the Inverter so you can make ice while driving.

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Old 03-12-2015, 08:35 PM   #3
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EMS will show power to all but as you turn things on it decides what will get power example if you have the AC on and the wife starts the microwave it will shut the air off the less you need something the quicker it will be turned off in my coach microwave is number 1 AC is 2 and down the line WD is last. How long has the frig been on it takes about 24 hrs to cool down
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Old 03-12-2015, 09:07 PM   #4
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You should not need to manually turn of breakers to control power to the unit even if on 30 A power. You need to be careful what you choose to run. E.g. you cannot run both AC units while on 30AMP power. Depending on the EMS system and if it has a combined inverter and automatic load shedding function it may manage your power usage. There are different EMS systems some that simply let you know how much power you are using and or if you are connected to 30A or 50A power. How the EMS system can tell if you are on 30A or 50A power is because if you are on 30A power both legs of the split phase panel are in phase with each other if you are plugged into 50A they will be 180 out of phase. The advanced EMS systems use a combination of inverter power which is phase locked to incoming AC power and utility power to power the loads and they also will shed non-critical loads temporarily to power user demanded loads. Essentially there is a decision tree in priority order of loads to shed depending on the incoming AC service. Usually the systems cannot tell if you have 15A, 20A or 30A service because they are all single phase AC. In that case the user would need to manually select a lower current draw if plugged into less than 30A. I have run an RV off of a single 15A circuit however you don't get to run the AC and anything else.
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Old 03-13-2015, 04:17 AM   #5
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If you have a SMART EMS, that shows you that you are on 30 amps,and the number of amps you are pulling... IT should do the controlling for you.

It will turn off power to things if it feels the need to..Mostly Water heater (Air Conditioners are more important) and Air Conditioners (Runs one at a time and gives priority to the Microwave)
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Old 03-13-2015, 07:54 AM   #6
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Congratulations on the new RV. It is an amazing and complex beast. Great information already provided. Did you get the owners manual? It is a 200 page + beast. I recommend reading it like you are going to take a test. You are of course and your comfort relies on it. Take notes, annotate with a highlighter, and then re-read it in a few weeks and then in a couple of months. You will find an amazing amount of information on the systems. Even part numbers for filters for example.

If you didn't get the manuals you should be able to get a CD from the factory with the manual or I can send you a copy of mine.
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:04 AM   #7
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You might want to determine how many amps each device/load is drawing so you can forecast what your system is likely to be doing at any point in time.

Also recommend a visit to the NoShockZone website for insight into electrical protection, safety, and power management.

Most of your future problems will likely be electrical related, as they are for any rv.
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:10 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tdccmc View Post
Don't need WD, so cut breaker off attempting to prevent EMS from providing power to that unit.
Don't turn breakers off. Even if the light on the EMS is on, it is not forcing current into that appliance, it's just saying that the appliance will be allowed to run if it wants. If you are not using that appliance and don't have it turned on, turning off the breaker will accomplish nothing.

In fact, turning off the breaker can cause problems. As has been mentioned, the EMS checks the incoming power voltages to determine what kind of connection you have and how much power usage it should allow. It does this by looking at the outputs of a couple of the breakers (which ones depend on the way it was installed.) If you turn off those breakers, you will deprive the EMS of the information it needs to properly manage your loads.

So, leave the breakers on, and turn off any appliances you don't need at the appliance itself, not at the breaker.

Quote:
So cut refrig breaker off to see if wired incorrectly. Still have light on Norcold panel. Shouldn't the light go off on refrig.
Which light? Most of the refrigerator works off of 12 volts, so it will keep working without AC power. The only thing the AC power drives is an electric heater in the cooling system. RV refrigerators actually cool down by heating the ammonia based coolant fluid: this can be done by a propane flame or an AC powered electric heater. But in either case, all of the controls run off of 12 volts.

Quote:
Why does EMS show WD status on when breaker off?
Because it's not showing that it is in operation, only that it will allow it to operate.

As long as you are not drawing more than 30 amps, all of the lights will go on.

Once it senses that you are using more than 30 amps, it will start to turn off the lights (and the power going to the associated appliance) one by one, monitoring how much the current goes down when it is turned off. It will keep doing this one after another until the total load is less than 30 amps.

At that point, some of the load lights will be off, some may be on. This is saying that any loads that are off are not being allowed to run, even if they way want to, so that more important loads can have the power they need. The ones that are lit will still be allowed to run. (At least as long as the power stays below 30 amps, those other loads may also get turned off in the future if more power is drawn by something.)

The system continues to monitor the power. When the current draw goes down enough that it can turn loads back on, it will one by one start turning them on again, as long as the power stays under 30 amps.

A real world example:

On my rig, four loads are controlled by the EMS: the water heater is the lowest priority, followed by the rear A/C, the washer/dryer, and the front A/C is the highest priority. I've got the following loads "turned on" but they are not necessarily running at the moment, because they have their own thermostats and don't come on unless needed:
  • Water Heater - 10 Amps
  • Rear A/C - 15 Amps
  • Front A/C - 15 Amps
I also have other loads (not managed by the EMS) that are on, like the refrigerator, TV, etc, that come out to 10 amps.

So, all of the thermostats are satisfied, and the coach is drawing 10 amps.

Now, the water heater decides that the water is getting too cool and it turns on. That's another 10 amps, giving 20 amps total. Everything is fine, all of the EMS lights are on.

Next, the rear air conditioner decides that the bedroom is getting too warm, so it comes on. That adds 15 amps, giving a total of 35 amps, which is too much. The EMS responds by cutting off the water heater, noting that the current goes down by 10 amps when it does that. The total current is now 25 amps, and things are OK. All EMS lights are on, except the water heater is off (because it was drawing too much power.)

Next, the front air conditioner decides that the living room is getting to warm, so it comes on. That adds 15 amps, giving a new total 40 amps, which is too much. The EMS responds by cutting off the rear air conditioner, noting that the current goes down by 15 amps when it does that. To total current is now 25 amps, and things are OK. Now the water heater and rear A/C EMS lights are off, the washer/dryer and front A/C are on.

Now, the microwave is turned on, drawing 12 amps. That brings the total power to 37 amps, which is too much. The EMS now turns off the washer dryer, and notes that there is no change to the power draw. So the EMS next turns off the front air conditioner, and notes that the power goes down by 15 amps. The total draw is now 22 amps, and all of the EMS lights are off.

At this point, the water heater and both air conditioners want to run, but they can't because that would be too much power. The EMS keeps watching the power. The highest priority load that was turned off was the front air conditioner, and the EMS remembers that it was drawing 15 amps when it turned off. So the EMS waits until the power drops to at least 15 amps before it will turn that air conditioner back on. When the microwave turns off, the power drops back down to 10 amps. The EMS watches this for a while, to make sure the load stays off, and after a few seconds it decides that it's safe to turn the front A/C on again. It does so, the air conditioner starts up, and the current goes back to 25 amps. Things are still good.

Now, the next highest priority load that was turned off is the washer/dryer. The EMS remembers that it saved no power when that was turned off, so it then checks the rear A/C. That was drawing 15 amps when it was shut off, so now the EMS is again waiting for the total current to go below 15 amps so that the air conditioner can be turned on. But the current load is 25 amps, so it waits.

The living room cools down enough that the front air conditioner goes off. The power drops to 10 amps, the EMS waits a few seconds for it to be stable, then decides it can turn the the rear air conditioner on. It turn on the washer dryer circuit, sees that the current didn't change, so it then turns on the rear A/C. It sees the current go back up to 25 amps.

At this point, only the water heater is cut off by the EMS. It remembers that it was using 10 amps when it was shut off. It knows that with the current 25 amp draw, turning that on would be 35 amps which would be too much, so it waits for the total power draw to be less than 20 amps before it can turn it back on. When the bedroom is cool enough, that air conditioner turns off, the load drops back down to 10 amps, so after a delay the EMS knows it's safe to turn on the water heater. It does so, the total current is 20 amps, which is good.

Now, all of the EMS lights are on, but only the water heater is actually drawing any power. Eventually, the water is hot enough and the heater turns off. All EMS lights are on, but none of those loads are actually drawing power. The total current load is 10 amps, and everyone is happy. The EMS has done its job managing all of those loads and letting as many run at one time as possible.

One more detail to be aware of: the electrical codes say that you should only use 80% of a circuit's capacity on a continuous basis. You should only use 100% of the capacity for an hour or less. Longer than that, and too much heat can build up in the wires. The EMS will enforce that. For the first hour of a heavy load, it will let you use up to 30 amps. After running at 30 amps for an hour, it will lower that threshold by 20% and only let you use 24 amps on a continuous basis. So if you see that the current is 25 amps or more, be aware that the EMS will only let that be for an hour, then it will shed loads to bring it to 24 amps or less.

I had this happen when I was plugged into 20 amps once and was using the air conditioner. The load was right at 19 or 20 amps, and things were cooling, but after an hour the air conditioner shut off (because for 20 amps, the 80% limit is only 16 amps.)
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:14 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by YC1 View Post
If you didn't get the manuals you should be able to get a CD from the factory with the manual or I can send you a copy of mine.
A PDF file of the manual can be downloaded HERE

Even if you have the paper copy, I recommend the PDF version as it can be searched by the computer, which sometimes makes it much faster to find a specific piece of information.

But, like Myron, I recommend sitting down with the paper book and reading through a few times. I even go back every few years and read mine again to help remember details I have invariably forgotten.
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:51 PM   #10
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Shapeshifter, as an orphan owner I have not visited the HR site in several years. It is nice to see they have added the owners manuals now. I bought mine new so have the paper one and then bought a CD with tons of information including the manual.
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Old 03-14-2015, 07:23 AM   #11
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Dr4Fimn thanks for the link to EMS service manual. I have not read that manual but will today. I have the Monaco manual and PDF version which I've read multiple times. Shapeshifter thanks for the real world example. I have a much better understanding of the EMS system thanks to everyone's help.

Didn't think of DC power to refrig panels which explains breaker concern.

Tech coming out today for Norcold 1210IM.

Thanks to all, Tony
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Old 03-14-2015, 09:39 AM   #12
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It is nice to see they have added the owners manuals now.
The link I gave before is for Monaco, HR specific manuals are HERE.

If you look at the bottom of both pages, there is a link to the Brochure Archive where you can also download PDF copies of the sales glossies for most coaches.

Quote:
and then bought a CD with tons of information including the manual.
You got lucky! Up through 2005, you could get printed books with wiring diagrams and similar information. Starting with 2008 you could get that information on CD. 2006 and 2007 are truly orphans, no such information is available other than the owner manual download. I've called and emailed about it, and the best I can get is one schematic page at a time emailed to me if I call about a specific problem.

What kinds of information is on the CD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tdccmc View Post
Shapeshifter thanks for the real world example. I have a much better understanding of the EMS system thanks to everyone's help.
You're welcome. The coach owner manual has a little bit of information in it, the EMS manual has some more, but you've got to live with it for a while and see how it responds to different scenarios to really get a feeling for what it does.
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Old 03-14-2015, 06:23 PM   #13
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Shapeshifter, I was able to get into the Monaco/HR site back in 2008 for quite some time and downloaded everything I could find. About that time I was able to buy a CD with the schematics etc. A 2008 is not that different than a 2007. They made just a few changes. No Alladin, using a Message Center system. Can't think of a lot of other issues. In short, I have a ton of schematics, many with added information over the years. If you would like what I have PM me with your address. Way too much to e-mail. They take up two DVD's.

I was disappointed when I went to the current HR site to look at the manuals they provide. Just the owners manual and the glossy as you said. I have those.
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