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Old 07-31-2008, 07:43 AM   #1
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As a result of Bud wanting to know "Where is Everybody" and my response of replacing the kitchen Fantastic Fan with an identical third AC/Heat Pump, I've received multiple PMs requesting more information, photos, and electrical loading. In order to share the information with everyone I thought it better just to start a new thread so everyone can join in the fun, but because there's so much to discuss and questions to answer I'll need to do it in sections. For reference our Camelot 36PDQ came with dual Dometic Duo-Therm AC/Heat Pump units (Model No. 630035.331), a Comfort Control Center (CCC) capable of controlling three air conditioning units, and an 8,000 watt Onan generator.

Areas need to be addressed are (1) Electrical Loading, (2) Inspection of Ducts and Vents, (3) Fantastic Fan removal, (4) Installation of Data Lines, (5) Installation of the Drain Hose, (6) Installation of the Remote Temperature Sensor, (7) Electrical Power Installation, (8) Required Air Conditioning Kits and their Part Numbers.

(1) ELECTRICAL LOADING: After installing the HW50C Surge Protector (and Power Monitor) I was able to record the actual power draw of our air conditioning units. WW and I had previously discussed his issues with his 42' Camelot trying to run all three air conditioners at the same time on shore power, which came down to simultaneous excessive fan and compressor starting surge current draw. The quick answer to this issue is to keep both Front Units in the fan High or Low mode and never use Auto unless you can reduce back down to just one front unit. The rear unit should not be an issue because it only has to share the line power with the inverter (microwave, TV, front outlets).

My actual readings were a fan only starting current draw of 6 amps then falling back to just 3 amps for one unit. The compressor draws 20 amps on start and drops back to 10 amps. So depending on line voltage I expect to see 13 to 15 amps for one unit running after startup. During lower line voltages to 109 volts I've seen 17 amps, but still well within a shore power 50 amp limit for a second compressor to come on line (17 + 20). Because our generator has dual 35 amp breakers it's much more marginal and depends on the actual generator output voltage. Therefore if we feel we need to run all three units while driving all other optional electrical appliances must be turned off (i.e. refrigerator goes to gas only).

Cummins Onan Technical Support (Mike) stated Onan Generators should be de-rated for temperature at 1% per 10º F above 85º F. So the generator output current is reduced by 1% at 95º F and 2% at 105º F. You must also de-rate the power an additional 3.5% for every 1,000 feet above 500 feet. So it's better to be hot in Texas than hot in Denver.

CC
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:43 AM   #2
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As a result of Bud wanting to know "Where is Everybody" and my response of replacing the kitchen Fantastic Fan with an identical third AC/Heat Pump, I've received multiple PMs requesting more information, photos, and electrical loading. In order to share the information with everyone I thought it better just to start a new thread so everyone can join in the fun, but because there's so much to discuss and questions to answer I'll need to do it in sections. For reference our Camelot 36PDQ came with dual Dometic Duo-Therm AC/Heat Pump units (Model No. 630035.331), a Comfort Control Center (CCC) capable of controlling three air conditioning units, and an 8,000 watt Onan generator.

Areas need to be addressed are (1) Electrical Loading, (2) Inspection of Ducts and Vents, (3) Fantastic Fan removal, (4) Installation of Data Lines, (5) Installation of the Drain Hose, (6) Installation of the Remote Temperature Sensor, (7) Electrical Power Installation, (8) Required Air Conditioning Kits and their Part Numbers.

(1) ELECTRICAL LOADING: After installing the HW50C Surge Protector (and Power Monitor) I was able to record the actual power draw of our air conditioning units. WW and I had previously discussed his issues with his 42' Camelot trying to run all three air conditioners at the same time on shore power, which came down to simultaneous excessive fan and compressor starting surge current draw. The quick answer to this issue is to keep both Front Units in the fan High or Low mode and never use Auto unless you can reduce back down to just one front unit. The rear unit should not be an issue because it only has to share the line power with the inverter (microwave, TV, front outlets).

My actual readings were a fan only starting current draw of 6 amps then falling back to just 3 amps for one unit. The compressor draws 20 amps on start and drops back to 10 amps. So depending on line voltage I expect to see 13 to 15 amps for one unit running after startup. During lower line voltages to 109 volts I've seen 17 amps, but still well within a shore power 50 amp limit for a second compressor to come on line (17 + 20). Because our generator has dual 35 amp breakers it's much more marginal and depends on the actual generator output voltage. Therefore if we feel we need to run all three units while driving all other optional electrical appliances must be turned off (i.e. refrigerator goes to gas only).

Cummins Onan Technical Support (Mike) stated Onan Generators should be de-rated for temperature at 1% per 10º F above 85º F. So the generator output current is reduced by 1% at 95º F and 2% at 105º F. You must also de-rate the power an additional 3.5% for every 1,000 feet above 500 feet. So it's better to be hot in Texas than hot in Denver.

CC
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Old 07-31-2008, 08:14 AM   #3
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CC,
Good job on characterizing the current loads. Very close to what I've seen with a clamp on ammeter. At 118v I saw 11 to 12 amps but did not observe start up current or alternate voltages.
I am also considering adding a 3rd AC/Heat Pump. Here in Texas 2 AC's cannot remove the heat gain. If in a shady stop they can but that is the exception rather than the rule. last week we were in Natchez, MS and it was 102 and the AC's could not keep up. I tried shutting off the rear vents but the rear AC froze up due to lack of air flow. The best you can do is open the quick cool louvers and use a fan to blow air toward the front. I mostly works but is not practical.
Like you, if I decide to install a 3rd ac I don't think I will integrate it with the existing duct system. I'm not sure it is worth the expense since the 3rd AC would mostly be used for very hot days. Also, I'm not sure if 2 AC coache ducting is the same as 3 AC. If not back pressure could be a problem if the ducting is not sized correctly. Removing the fantastic fan and installing the 3rd AC in that location is a good idea. Also a good idea leaving the current AC fans on low or high to avoid the start up current requirements.
I've also considered repplacing the current 13.5k BTU with 15k BTU but don't think that would achieve what I want.

mark
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:05 AM   #4
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(2) INSPECTION OF DUCTS AND VENTS: You MUST know where your ducts start and end before you start, and you may find why you're not getting all the air you should. In our Camelot 36PDQ the passenger side duct runs the full length of the coach unlike the driver's side. The driver's duct is not continuous from the dinette area to the bathroom. The best I can tell is that they had to run the black tank vent pipe up through that area. Expect the duct to end about 7 to 10 inches from the last vent. The duct ends are sealed with only a very thin tin foil making it easy to punch through to run wire, coax, etc. I removed all vents and inspected the ducts with a Bullet Camera and Light shown in the photo below. I made up a 40 foot length of mini coax with BNC connectors on both ends with a BNC to RCA adapter on one end to plug into the Video 1 input of the front 32" TV.

Photo of Bullet Camera and Light



When inspecting the front Driver's Side duct I found that Monaco had brought the dash radio antenna coax down through the roof, into that duct, and punched the coax through the forward end of the duct to run the coax to the radio. The entire front end of the duct was punched open and left unsealed supplying air to the front ceiling area. I have sealed that end with expanding foam. The ducts should look clean with square corners as in the photo below.

Photo of Clean and Square Duct



I found two other problems in the shower and bathroom areas. The passenger side duct 9 inches forward of the vent just outside of the shower was breached on both sides, top, and bottom. There's been no work or modifications in that area so I'm assuming the damage was done during the manufacturing process. Monaco has the photos and will determine a way forward with making this repair.

Photo of Breached Duct


I also found a breach on the Driver's Side duct about 8 inches aft of the vent in the bathroom. After further inspection I found that Monaco had run wires up through the hall side of the medicine cabinet, into the ceiling, and into the duct.

Photo of Bathroom Wiring Going up into Drivers Side AC Duct


The repair of the above breach can be found here.

For a discussion of vent intrusion into the duct and a fix go here.

For photos of the ceiling kit blockage of air into the ducts and quick fix go here.

CC
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:44 AM   #5
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(3) FANTASTIC FAN REMOVAL: This is not only the easiest part of the project, it also provides the 12vdc wiring (purple & white wire pair) needed for the new AC Control Module. The fuse for this 12vdc circuit is located in the bedroom panel at F13 and should be pulled before cutting the wires to remove the unit. After removing the four screws to pull out the inside shell, the connectors were disconnected going to the Fantastic Fan Control panel and the power wires were cut.

Photo of Fantastic Fan with inside shell removed.



The roof unit is held in with 16 long Phillips screws and a lot sealant. I removed all of the screws first and then pulled up and removed the roof assembly. The remaining sealant was cleaned off with a plastic edge and 3M General Purpose Adhesive Cleaner.

Photo of Roof Unit



Once the roof was cleaned the holes were filled with sealant.

Photo before sealing the 16 screw holes


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Old 07-31-2008, 10:27 AM   #6
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Steve,
Thanks for starting the thread I am sure it will help me decide if I should add the third AC. We are in Bakersfield CA where temps are in the 100s. We will also be here next summer helping watch our new grand daughter.

I have had some problems with my AC so I did a lot of research on Amp draw. I talking to Dometic they told me that the stated amps were for an ambiant temp of 90 degrees. They told me as temp raise the draw will go up. I found that the total was about 16 amp when running however at 110 temp it had gone up to 18 amps. On another fourm there was a discussion of an third AC that was an OEM unit. The coach had a load sheding system and the third AC shared a breaker with the Washer/Dryer. With some type of relay that disabled the W/D when the third AC was on.
Again thanks for the thread and I look forward to the additional photos and write-ups.
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Old 07-31-2008, 11:38 AM   #7
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(4) INSTALLATION OF THE DATA LINES: The middle unit (#2) needs a data line from the front unit (#1) and a data line to go to the bedroom unit (#3). The existing configuration was a data line from the CCC to #1 and a data line from #1 to #3. The simplest solution was to just run two data lines from unit #2 to unit #1. One of the unit #2 lines would be plugged into unit #1 after unplugging the data line that ran to unit #3. A double female adapter was attached to the data line to unit #3 so that the second data line from unit #2 could be coupled to it. I probably have an unfair advantage because I custom make all of my own RJ11, RJ12, and RJ45 phone lines and CAT-5E cables.

Before I could run the lines in the passenger side air duct, I had to do a rough cut out of the duct hole to get my hand to the outside of the duct. There was also a vent hole that also gave me access to the inside of the duct because I had left the vents removed from the duct inspection.

Photo of rough cut duct hole to install data lines



I used a screw driver to make a small horizontal hole in the side of the duct large enough to push the ends of both lines (without connectors) into the duct. The lines were pulled through the duct up to the front unit, taped down with foil tape, and the RJ12 connectors were then installed on both ends of both lines. Both data lines were tested with a Byte Brothers LAN tester to make sure the continuity was straight through and not crossed over.

Photo of Byte Brothers LAN tester


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Old 07-31-2008, 12:06 PM   #8
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(5) INSTALLATION OF THE DRAIN HOSE: I purchased a ten foot package of half inch vinyl drain hose from Lowes. The three cable ties that held the hose to the package crimped the hose in several places so it would be best to get the length needed from a large bulk supply if possible. The new drain hose runs inside the driver side duct about the same way the data lines run up the passenger side duct. Once inside the front unit a hole was cut to pass the hose through to join a half inch T where I cut the main drain line.

Photo of Drain Hose for new unit



Photo of Drain Hose entering front unit



Photo of Drain Hose interface at front unit


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Old 07-31-2008, 12:48 PM   #9
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(6) INSTALLATION OF THE REMOTE TEMPERATURE SENSOR: This is where the level of difficulty went up just a notch. I decided the best place to mount the sensor was just above the Fantastic Fan control panel as the front unit sensor was mounted just below the control panel.

Photo of Remote Temperature Sensors



Access the back of that panel is through the back of the bathroom cabinet. After removing the back panel of the cabinet, I drilled a one inch hole into the ceiling that lined up with the air duct if it would have come back that far. I inserted a steel tape fishing wire into the last vent hole near the dinette and pushed it aft through the end of the duct, down below the insulation, and into the one inch hole I just drilled. Oh, and that didn't happen on the first try as you would expect. I taped on the connector end of the sensor and pulled it forward to the vent hole and then into the duct hole for the new unit.

Photo of Bathroom Cabinet with panel removed



Photo of Sensor Connector at duct hole for new unit


Now it was just a matter of drilling a new hole and passing it through the duct as done with the drain hose.

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Old 07-31-2008, 01:30 PM   #10
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(7) ELECTRICAL POWER INSTALLATION: The easiest part here is the installation of a new circuit breaker (CB). I replaced the single 20 amp CB used for the Front Air Conditioner with a same size dual 20 amp CB and labeled #1 and #2 as shown in the photo. The front air conditioner is still managed by the EMS, but unit #2 is connected direct with no power shed capability.

Photo of Dual 20 Amp CB



Again I drilled a one inch hole into the ceiling from the bedroom closet where the air duct would have extended. I fished the steel tape fishing wire into the last vent hole and pushed it aft until it hit the one inch hole. The end of the 25' 12-2 Romex was taped on and pulled forward to the vent hole. Just reaching through the vent hole I was able to feed the wire all the way up to the bathroom vent hole, but be sure to bend the front end of the Romex 180 degrees so that it leads with smooth plastic instead of sharp wire ends. I moved the steel tape fishing wire back up to the vent hole at the dinette and fished it back into the front end of the duct at the bathroom. The wire was then pulled further forward to the dinette vent and then to its final destination.

Photo of Romex entering at bedroom closet



I had to move the Multiplex lighting panel in the closet out of the way to drill a hole forward to allow the Romex to enter the chamber behind the CB panel. I installed black wire loom over the wire from the top of the ceiling hole to the back of the chamber hole. And per RVIA standards, I made an L channel cover to protect the loom cover Romex in the closet.

Photo of L Channel Cover in bedroom closet



Photo of wire entering for unit #2



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Old 07-31-2008, 02:05 PM   #11
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(8) REQUIRED AIR CONDITIONING KITS AND THEIR PART NUMBERS: One area I haven't cover is creating the ducts between the new unit and the main air ducts. I purchased the duct material from Monaco, cut to fit, and taped in with foil tape. My rough hole cut for the ducts were intentionally smaller than required. The new duct material was measured and the duct holes were expanded and filed clean to remove any sharp edges. Below are the final photos before AC installation including the shroud that I had custom painted to the correct paint code to match the other two units.

Photo of Passenger Side


Photo of Drivers Side


Photo of Shroud after painting



DOMETIC PART NUMBERS:
Roof AC Unit Model No. 630035.331
Quick Cool Return Air Cover Kit (Polar White) P/N 3105935.047
Sensor Kit P/N 3106486.0(xx)
Drain Kit P/N 3107688.016
Control Module P/N 3109226.005
NOTE: I've had to edit the Dometic P/Ns several times because everytime I speak with someone different at Dometic Tech Support I get a different answer on what comes with what kit. So speak with more than just one person before ordering.

MONACO PART NUMBERS:
Roof Gasket seal and support blocks P/N 41126
8' Foot Section of Main Duct Material P/N 57224

CC
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Old 08-02-2008, 02:07 AM   #12
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GOOD NEWS (for me) AND BAD NEWS (for some)

BAD NEWS: I spoke with Camelot Engineering Friday to discuss the breach of the driver's side air conditioning duct for the dash radio antenna coax. This is the way ALL Camelots are installed, and I would expect on other Monaco models as well. You can check yours with a small mirror and flashlight after removing the front vent and looking forward. If you don't want to air condition your front ceiling, a can of expanding foam is just one air tight solution. You may also be able to see the end of the duct by removing the closest speaker.

GOOD NEWS: My breached passenger side duct just forward of the shower vent was between two joining 8' ducts and was a major breach. There were no good solutions to repair it due to its location above the front pocket door short of cutting a hole down through the roof. I convinced Technical Support late Friday the best solution was not to fix it, but to isolate it by sealing it off with expanding foam. Ten minutes and $4.82 later it was done. I sprayed the foam forward of the shower vent and aft of the kitchen vent then visually checked it with the bullet camera to make sure the foam went all the way across the duct.

CC
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Old 08-04-2008, 07:51 AM   #13
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Mark/Dave,
Sorry for the late response.

Mark,
I spoke today with Dometic Tech Support (Todd) who stated if there is a Back Pressure Requirement he wasn't aware of it, and there is no such requirement discussed in the installation instructions, which Dometic will email to you or I can forward to you. The SCFM is 250min to 335max.

Now that I've sealed off the breach in the passenger side duct near the shower, the rear unit will have 6 vents (bedroom 4, shower 1, bathroom 1). There are seven vents to be shared by the two ac units in the front living/kitchen area. And to make the duct system as tight as possible, I've sealed off the ends of the ducts with the expanding foam. If we find an issue with back pressure after the installation, I'll let you know asap but Dometic and I don't think it's an issue.


Dave,
Load monitoring and load control with 3 ac units is important, hence the HW50C remote display. The most marginal loading is running both front units at the same time with the generator because they're tied to the same bus (L1). Other equipment that are on L1 include the Central Vac, Aqua-Hot Water Heater, Block Heater, and bedroom outlets. The engine will keep the Aqua-Hot water hot while we're on the road and diesel fuel can keep it hot if we're dry camped. The other L1 loads listed can be off with no problem. We usually don't need that extra air conditioning when we're driving because there's less inside area with the slides in and the dash air is running. I may test drive with all four ACs while it's still hot just to see if it can take it. And trust me, our two Keeshonds won't mind the extra air.

CC
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:44 PM   #14
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CamalotCamper -- Steve- Are you making an ice machine -- With all those airs going, snow will be a possiblity -- I installed a heat shield under the closet floor, & it does help -- Bill Willard
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