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Old 09-18-2021, 11:02 AM   #1
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Battery Tender

I am replacing my engine and house batteries. My RV is garaged and I can plug it in. Would I be better off using a battery tender to keep the batteries charged to reduce wear on the inverter?

I assume if I use a battery tender than my battery disconnects should be off, or does it matter.

If the tender is the best way to go, are there any recommendations?

Thanks in advance.

Russ
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Old 09-18-2021, 11:26 AM   #2
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If you can plug it into AC Power then let the Inverter/Charger do what it is designed to do....maintain/charge batteries

Leave Battery Disconnect ON/Closed
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Old 09-18-2021, 12:37 PM   #3
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A lot of the older Monaco, Holiday Rambler do not have a maintainer on the chassis batteries.. I installed one. So my inverter charger takes care of the house batteries and my maintainer, which I mounted in the battery bay takes care of the chassis batteries.. I ran a cord to a outlet on the side of my house for the maintainer.
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Old 09-18-2021, 12:54 PM   #4
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I'm in the minority and prefer to turn both chassis and house batty switches off, inverter/ charger off and I use Battery Minders (TM) to maintain both.
Chassis is a small 1.5A or 2A unit and for house I bought their selectable 2-4-8A unit. Both are multi phase quality maintainers and I have had excellent results with them.i have kept a few AGM UPS battys that were being replaced on PM sched on maintainers as stand by for 10 yrs + and have then placed them in service with some still going after another 5 yrs of use.
I can't see running an inverter 24/7 unattended in storage, when it is not needed. Many are designed for 100+A input/output and there have been instances where they have caught fire.
I permanently mounted my maintainers and wired them so one short extension cord near storage outlet takes care of both. Bonus is storage unit doesn't charge me for power since I don't plug in MH and only use small maintainers with next to nothing for draw.

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Old 09-18-2021, 08:32 PM   #5
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Does you inverter have charge only function.?
Many posts on my coach trips GFCI at garage.The inverter will then draw down batteries.
There are decent dual bank boat battery charger \maintainers for around $100 .While not intended as a 12v convertor they have enough power for you to go out in coach use some lights and radio ect. and have batteries soon back to full if you use some more than it put out for a few hours.
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Old 03-12-2022, 11:13 AM   #6
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Thanks. On the 6v house batteries, would I use a 6v tender or a 12v and connect to the terminals that are providing 12v from them?
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Old 03-12-2022, 11:18 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by russ2528 View Post
Thanks. On the 6v house batteries, would I use a 6v tender or a 12v and connect to the terminals that are providing 12v from them?
Without a doubt, 12V tender attached to the "12V terminals.
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Old 03-12-2022, 12:43 PM   #8
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I would only add an additional piece of stuff if I didn't have a modern smart inverter charger.
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Old 03-13-2022, 10:02 AM   #9
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We have nearly identical ships.

Your converter charges both banks IF the BiRD system is functioning properly.

It is a great charger so adding additional ones is not needed.

Because of the age of our RV's I will post this description of how things work. You do need to go through the diagnosis part to make sure things are functioning properly.

Checking the batteries at least monthly and making sure the water is at the proper level is essential.

Once the batteries are fully charged you can turn the battery switches in the battery compartment off and disconnect the shoreline.

I printed a picture of my battery compartment switches and left it on the seat of the RV at the indoor storage facility. The person bringing it out or putting it away then knew how to turn them on or off.
__________________________________________________ __________________

2008 HR Endeavor 40SKQ


Hi folks, welcome to the forum.

First let’s clear up the "Big Boy" question. It is like calling all tissues Kleenex.

To be specific there are several variations of the "Big Boy" solenoid. The solenoid is a very simple electric switch controlled by a 12-volt source. See, even the Big Boy is not always called that. As an electronic tech I will refer to it as the relay. How's that for confusion.

So, Big Boy, Solenoid, Relay, and often because of the mfgr of these they are called Trombetta relays.

How these relays are activated can be complex or as simple as sending 12 volts and ground to them.

You will notice on your relay in the battery compartment that there are two wires. One is likely purple. In any case one is ground and the other is switched 12 volts. The purple wire is the switched voltage in most cases.

Again, 12 volts is sent to the purple wire and the big relay goes clunk and makes contact between the large wires thus combining the batteries.

That relay under normal working conditions will get very warm or even hot to the touch if it runs for several hours. For example, if things are working properly and you are using shoreline it will be working 24/7 and get hot to the touch. This is normal.

So, the heart of the system is that relay on the back being controlled by 12 volts. How and where that 12-volt control comes from can be the tricky part to understand...

We will get to the BIRD part shortly.

First, if the engine is running and after a few minutes of warming up and the grid heater stops loading down the battery, voltage on the chassis batteries should rise enough to engage the BIRD device and send the 12 volts to the relay. This is the “Delay” part of the bird. It would not make sense to combine the batteries without the alternator having brought up chassis batteries a bit or for extreme loads such as the grid heater to be gone. .

So, let’s take the situation where your chassis batteries have been run down for some reason. You left the radio on for two days etc.

Pressing and holding the Aux start button bypasses the fancy “BIRD” circuitry and sends 12 volts directly to the relay in the battery compartment. This combines the battery banks just as a set of jumper cables would.

Now that we understand how the relay functions let’s begin managing when it is turned on. We already discussed how the “Aux” start button controls it. That is a manual function and can easily be tested by listening to the relay as someone presses the button. If no clunk is heard, then the relay is most likely already activated. To test this without a meter, simply remove the purple wire. Wear some gloves because there will be a tiny static like discharge that can surprise you. If you have a meter you can measure the voltage on the little terminals. You can also carefully feel the relay to see if it is warm or hot IF it has been engaged for some time.

Here is how the Bi-Directional Relay Delay functions to control that purple wire.

Keep in mind the “DELAY” part as you are troubleshooting. It can take a couple of minutes for it to activate. No sense in combining batteries if the first bank being charged is not up enough.

Parked with nothing running and no shoreline the bird is asleep. No combining. However, if you have solar that is indeed a charging source and may be enough to activate the bird.

Now you plug into shoreline. The little circuit board in the front run panel wakes up and sees that your converter is doing a fine job of charging the house batteries. The converter is connected directly to them via cutoff switches and fuses or circuit breakers. The BIRD now sends voltage to the relay and engages it, thus combining the batteries.

Time to leave, shoreline is disconnected so the BIRD drops out the control voltage. You fire up the big engine and in a couple of minutes the BIRD sees a nice alternator doing its thing. Time to send voltage to the relay again.

We have just discussed the BI-directional part of the BIRD. This demonstrates how it can work from one set of battery banks to the other depending on which one is getting the charge.

Arriving at your favorite boon docking place you decide to fire up the generator to run some heavy loads. This generator is the same thing as having shoreline power, so it works as described before.

So, you spend the weekend without the generator running anymore and enjoy the quiet along with some tv and perhaps running the microwave on the inverter. Inverter of course not the converter. They can be combined in one box and I can address that more if needed. Inverters are real battery hogs so now you have a very large set of batteries.

You are packed, and the big engine is started, thus providing a big enough voltage to activate the BIRD. You are now charging 6 batteries or more and the alternator is straining. This is rough on the alternator, so you follow the manufacture and my advice and fire up the generator so the “converter” comes alive and supplies voltage to the drained house batteries.

At this stage you have two sources of charging voltage. The converter via the generator, and the alternator. This poses a bit of an issue with the alternator and can cause it to show a fault. However, the BIRD is rather smart and knows the engine is running along with the generator. With these two competing charging sources it simply turns the Relay off and allows each battery bank to be charged separately.

Now that you understand how it works, here is a scenario that could get you home if your alternator dies. Just start the generator and prop the AUX button up so it forces the banks to combine. Since your alternator is offline there will not be any conflicts. This will easily get you any distance you wish to travel. The bird might see the charging voltage from the generator/converter and pull the relay in on its own but holding the switch will assure it gets charged.

Of course, you could put a small jumper from 12 volts to the purple wire on the relay and do the same without pushing the button.

Now you understand how, when, and why the relay is activated. What you don’t know is if it is actually working. The relay is a very simple device inside. It is a magnet that pulls a contact across the two large wires connected to it. Very often these contacts burn and fail to make contact. This can be intermittent and drive a technician crazy.

If the relay is activated there is either a charging source or the AUX button is being held down. When it is activated it is like placing a nail across the two large terminals. So you should see the exact same voltage on each of the large terminals and at the batteries. If you do not see the exact same voltage across the large terminals, then the relay is bad.

This can be a bit tricky if both banks of batteries have been fully charged and the relay is making contact but a poor one. You will see the same voltage on each large terminal and think the relay is ok. You need to run one bank down a bit so there will be lots of current trying to charge for an accurate assessment.

If you are having one bank of batteries low after having a charging source for several hours and you find voltage on the purple wire then the relay is bad.,

These relays are a known source of problem and I had a heck of a time understanding how the system works. I am a senior certified electronic tech and extremely qualified to work on such a simple system as long as I know how it is supposed to function. I did not have that information in 2008.

Replacing the relay is easy and cheap as things go on these things. Be sure to turn both battery banks off and I would highly recommend removing the negative leads of each bank for additional safety. You can weld with these battery cables so do be careful.

Once you replace the relay, do yourself and us a favor by taking the old one apart and inspecting the inside.

The actual BIRD control board is a common failure item too but has become difficult to source. I found one on e-bay.

Don’t despair if that is the problem because there are plenty of other solutions available.

There is another relay that has nothing to do with the charging system but gives plenty of problems. It is the “Salesman” switch/relay. It is the relay controlled by the switch by the door or nearby. The relay is in the box up front near the BIRD board. The BIRD board is a small board. The relay is on the bottom left.
This thing controls lots of functions and can go bad anytime. Simply bypassing it with a jumper is easy and permanent fix if it fails.


Happy Trails,
Myron
08 Endeavor
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Old 03-13-2022, 10:06 AM   #10
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https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqrv2TUdbV6xwkIx...Y05mm?e=fQY9oY

Russ, since we have 2008 models these files may help you with lots of other things as well. It might take a few minutes to download these.

Search for the Battery, Bird files section and you will find lots of information.
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Old 03-15-2022, 12:28 PM   #11
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Great explanation ...A few pics of different BIRD and IRD relays/delays and this is a great sticky. Maybe IRD,diode isolator, Lambert and Ample/Trickle Starts . Fixing, cleaning bypassing big boy type relay and have a better sticky to point posters to. Seems to the universal issue across all brands to deal with.There are several on this Monaco first page going now.
Comes up as much or more than tires, DP vs gasser, "what coach" those are all big decisions understandable people want to post , hate to look back and think you made a mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YC1 View Post
We have nearly identical ships.

Your converter charges both banks IF the BiRD system is functioning properly.

It is a great charger so adding additional ones is not needed.

Because of the age of our RV's I will post this description of how things work. You do need to go through the diagnosis part to make sure things are functioning properly.

Checking the batteries at least monthly and making sure the water is at the proper level is essential.

Once the batteries are fully charged you can turn the battery switches in the battery compartment off and disconnect the shoreline.

I printed a picture of my battery compartment switches and left it on the seat of the RV at the indoor storage facility. The person bringing it out or putting it away then knew how to turn them on or off.
__________________________________________________ __________________

2008 HR Endeavor 40SKQ


Hi folks, welcome to the forum.

First let’s clear up the "Big Boy" question. It is like calling all tissues Kleenex.

To be specific there are several variations of the "Big Boy" solenoid. The solenoid is a very simple electric switch controlled by a 12-volt source. See, even the Big Boy is not always called that. As an electronic tech I will refer to it as the relay. How's that for confusion.

So, Big Boy, Solenoid, Relay, and often because of the mfgr of these they are called Trombetta relays.

How these relays are activated can be complex or as simple as sending 12 volts and ground to them.

You will notice on your relay in the battery compartment that there are two wires. One is likely purple. In any case one is ground and the other is switched 12 volts. The purple wire is the switched voltage in most cases.

Again, 12 volts is sent to the purple wire and the big relay goes clunk and makes contact between the large wires thus combining the batteries.

That relay under normal working conditions will get very warm or even hot to the touch if it runs for several hours. For example, if things are working properly and you are using shoreline it will be working 24/7 and get hot to the touch. This is normal.

So, the heart of the system is that relay on the back being controlled by 12 volts. How and where that 12-volt control comes from can be the tricky part to understand...

We will get to the BIRD part shortly.

First, if the engine is running and after a few minutes of warming up and the grid heater stops loading down the battery, voltage on the chassis batteries should rise enough to engage the BIRD device and send the 12 volts to the relay. This is the “Delay” part of the bird. It would not make sense to combine the batteries without the alternator having brought up chassis batteries a bit or for extreme loads such as the grid heater to be gone. .

So, let’s take the situation where your chassis batteries have been run down for some reason. You left the radio on for two days etc.

Pressing and holding the Aux start button bypasses the fancy “BIRD” circuitry and sends 12 volts directly to the relay in the battery compartment. This combines the battery banks just as a set of jumper cables would.

Now that we understand how the relay functions let’s begin managing when it is turned on. We already discussed how the “Aux” start button controls it. That is a manual function and can easily be tested by listening to the relay as someone presses the button. If no clunk is heard, then the relay is most likely already activated. To test this without a meter, simply remove the purple wire. Wear some gloves because there will be a tiny static like discharge that can surprise you. If you have a meter you can measure the voltage on the little terminals. You can also carefully feel the relay to see if it is warm or hot IF it has been engaged for some time.

Here is how the Bi-Directional Relay Delay functions to control that purple wire.

Keep in mind the “DELAY” part as you are troubleshooting. It can take a couple of minutes for it to activate. No sense in combining batteries if the first bank being charged is not up enough.

Parked with nothing running and no shoreline the bird is asleep. No combining. However, if you have solar that is indeed a charging source and may be enough to activate the bird.

Now you plug into shoreline. The little circuit board in the front run panel wakes up and sees that your converter is doing a fine job of charging the house batteries. The converter is connected directly to them via cutoff switches and fuses or circuit breakers. The BIRD now sends voltage to the relay and engages it, thus combining the batteries.

Time to leave, shoreline is disconnected so the BIRD drops out the control voltage. You fire up the big engine and in a couple of minutes the BIRD sees a nice alternator doing its thing. Time to send voltage to the relay again.

We have just discussed the BI-directional part of the BIRD. This demonstrates how it can work from one set of battery banks to the other depending on which one is getting the charge.

Arriving at your favorite boon docking place you decide to fire up the generator to run some heavy loads. This generator is the same thing as having shoreline power, so it works as described before.

So, you spend the weekend without the generator running anymore and enjoy the quiet along with some tv and perhaps running the microwave on the inverter. Inverter of course not the converter. They can be combined in one box and I can address that more if needed. Inverters are real battery hogs so now you have a very large set of batteries.

You are packed, and the big engine is started, thus providing a big enough voltage to activate the BIRD. You are now charging 6 batteries or more and the alternator is straining. This is rough on the alternator, so you follow the manufacture and my advice and fire up the generator so the “converter” comes alive and supplies voltage to the drained house batteries.

At this stage you have two sources of charging voltage. The converter via the generator, and the alternator. This poses a bit of an issue with the alternator and can cause it to show a fault. However, the BIRD is rather smart and knows the engine is running along with the generator. With these two competing charging sources it simply turns the Relay off and allows each battery bank to be charged separately.

Now that you understand how it works, here is a scenario that could get you home if your alternator dies. Just start the generator and prop the AUX button up so it forces the banks to combine. Since your alternator is offline there will not be any conflicts. This will easily get you any distance you wish to travel. The bird might see the charging voltage from the generator/converter and pull the relay in on its own but holding the switch will assure it gets charged.

Of course, you could put a small jumper from 12 volts to the purple wire on the relay and do the same without pushing the button.

Now you understand how, when, and why the relay is activated. What you don’t know is if it is actually working. The relay is a very simple device inside. It is a magnet that pulls a contact across the two large wires connected to it. Very often these contacts burn and fail to make contact. This can be intermittent and drive a technician crazy.

If the relay is activated there is either a charging source or the AUX button is being held down. When it is activated it is like placing a nail across the two large terminals. So you should see the exact same voltage on each of the large terminals and at the batteries. If you do not see the exact same voltage across the large terminals, then the relay is bad.

This can be a bit tricky if both banks of batteries have been fully charged and the relay is making contact but a poor one. You will see the same voltage on each large terminal and think the relay is ok. You need to run one bank down a bit so there will be lots of current trying to charge for an accurate assessment.

If you are having one bank of batteries low after having a charging source for several hours and you find voltage on the purple wire then the relay is bad.,

These relays are a known source of problem and I had a heck of a time understanding how the system works. I am a senior certified electronic tech and extremely qualified to work on such a simple system as long as I know how it is supposed to function. I did not have that information in 2008.

Replacing the relay is easy and cheap as things go on these things. Be sure to turn both battery banks off and I would highly recommend removing the negative leads of each bank for additional safety. You can weld with these battery cables so do be careful.

Once you replace the relay, do yourself and us a favor by taking the old one apart and inspecting the inside.

The actual BIRD control board is a common failure item too but has become difficult to source. I found one on e-bay.

Don’t despair if that is the problem because there are plenty of other solutions available.

There is another relay that has nothing to do with the charging system but gives plenty of problems. It is the “Salesman” switch/relay. It is the relay controlled by the switch by the door or nearby. The relay is in the box up front near the BIRD board. The BIRD board is a small board. The relay is on the bottom left.
This thing controls lots of functions and can go bad anytime. Simply bypassing it with a jumper is easy and permanent fix if it fails.


Happy Trails,
Myron
08 Endeavor
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Old 03-15-2022, 01:39 PM   #12
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At the end of a trip, I make sure my batteries are fully charged , then disconnect them ( house & chassis) if the coach is going to sit for more than a few days.
If I am going to be boondocking, I will reconnect the batteries and connect to shore power a day before I leave to make sure they are fully charged. Otherwise , I just reconnect before I start loading .
Keeping the coach plugged in or having the batteries on a tender is great to ensure your batteries are completely fully charged if you have to leave on a moments notice but it will shorten the life of the batteries.
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Old 03-15-2022, 02:25 PM   #13
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Just some clarification.

#1 The inverter/charger IS NOT a converter/charger.
An inverter/charger NEEDS a battery to charge. It will not supply power to the rig with out one. It will not charge a dead battery either. It will invert 12 volt battery power to 120 volts AC.

A Converter/charger is a battery substitute and a charger. It does not need a battery to power the rig. It will not invert 12 volts to 120 volts AC.

#2 When the BIRD closes the isolation solenoid, it does so by sending battery voltage to it. After a very short time, it starts modulating that power to about 8 volts to prevent the solenoid from overheating.

Holding the Aux Start switch ON sends battery voltage to the solenoid as long as the switch is held. That can overheat and burn out the coils. Better to repair the charging system or move the battery cables to one post for long drives.

#3 The generator / engine running solenoid lockout is, in many cases, not wired up to the BIRD controller. Look at it to see if that terminal has wire on it. No big deal but you may get a alternator fail light on the dash if you travel with the generator running.
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Old 03-15-2022, 04:33 PM   #14
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Russ, your 2008 SKQ does NOT modulate the voltage going to the trombetta/bird relay. It supplies close to battery voltage continuously and hence the solenoid/trombetta/bird relay can get too hot to touch.

You can hold the aux start button down indefinitely on your setup. It does the same thing the Bird control board does.

Your setup does have the generator lockout feature. Meaning if the engine is running and the generator is running for example as you are tooling down the highway with the roof ac units running it isolates the battery banks because the alternator is charging the engine batteries and the generator is charging your house batteries. via your Magnum Inverter/charger.

As for leaving your setup on shoreline indefinitely it is just fine IF you keep an eye on the water levels, and make sure things are clean and shiny as well as having the charging system set to the proper settings for your batteries.

For long term storage I usually turn the charger down to 10-20 percent if I remember but it really is not needed. That is a great tool to use when you have limited shoreline.

As I mentioned, we have the same model and floorplan as well as the same year so I suspect I know your system as well as mine.

If you need to store the RV for more than two or three days, follow the owners manual and turn the battery switches off in the battery compartment. Not the switch next to the door when you enter. That switch and solenoid is a different story and mine has been bypassed for years.

If you have any issues or questions Russ with your setup or how to diagnose it let me know.
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