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Old 07-25-2009, 10:08 AM   #1
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Brake lights with exhaust brake

As a owner of a 2006 Cayman, I am in need of a little help in troubleshooting the brake lite circuits. While trying to install the Brake Switch unit, I discovered that I do not have brake lamps lit when my exhaust brake is engaged! My owners manual and Monaco LLC Both state that the stop lamps should be on. I am currently getting a electrical schematic printed that may help, (ever thr reading one of those on a computer screen?) Any suggestions would sure be appreciated. Could there be a second fuse somewhere for the exhaust brake lamp power?

Thanks. Ray
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Old 07-25-2009, 03:20 PM   #2
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Are you sure that it may be normal to work that way.
My friend has a 2001 H/R and that is how his works,on our 2003 Safari the brake lights come on when ever the exhaust brake comes on.
That is why we are getting the brake switch unit,so we can use the C/C and have the exhaust brake on,now as soon as you turn on the pac brake the C/C goes off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abray2002 View Post
As a owner of a 2006 Cayman, I am in need of a little help in troubleshooting the brake lite circuits. While trying to install the Brake Switch unit, I discovered that I do not have brake lamps lit when my exhaust brake is engaged! My owners manual and Monaco LLC Both state that the stop lamps should be on. I am currently getting a electrical schematic printed that may help, (ever thr reading one of those on a computer screen?) Any suggestions would sure be appreciated. Could there be a second fuse somewhere for the exhaust brake lamp power?

Thanks. Ray
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Old 07-25-2009, 04:39 PM   #3
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Ray.....I have the same issue. I took it in twice and both the mechanic and I (with a schematic I had printed into a 3' x 4' sheet) could not locate the issue after about 5 hours of searching. It's just one of those things where something was left out somewhere.

I decided to run a wire back to the exhaust brake solenoid and trigger the switch there. That didn't work because the switch needs to see 12 volts (brake lamps) and the wires to the solenoid are only switching ground, not power.
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Old 07-25-2009, 05:13 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diplomat Don View Post
Ray.....I have the same issue. I took it in twice and both the mechanic and I (with a schematic I had printed into a 3' x 4' sheet) could not locate the issue after about 5 hours of searching. It's just one of those things where something was left out somewhere.

I decided to run a wire back to the exhaust brake solenoid and trigger the switch there. That didn't work because the switch needs to see 12 volts (brake lamps) and the wires to the solenoid are only switching ground, not power.
Don,

You could use a 12 volt relay and connect the coil to 12 volts and let the ground turn on the relay when the exhaust brake engages. Use the contacts of the relay to turn on the brake lights. One of these should do the trick:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3020762

Bob
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Old 07-25-2009, 05:28 PM   #5
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Bob...As I wrote my post.......I thought....I should ask Bob.....I was even thinking of the latching relay. I knew you might have an idea. Again, my electrical knowledge is minimal. I think I'm correct when I say the exhaust brake circuit on the Monaco is switching ground. When I first tried to make the brake switch work, I tapped into both wires on the exhaust solenoid and neither produced 12+ volts when I engaged the brake and had a meter connected. Is my thinking correct?
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Old 07-25-2009, 09:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diplomat Don View Post
Bob...As I wrote my post.......I thought....I should ask Bob.....I was even thinking of the latching relay. I knew you might have an idea. Again, my electrical knowledge is minimal. I think I'm correct when I say the exhaust brake circuit on the Monaco is switching ground. When I first tried to make the brake switch work, I tapped into both wires on the exhaust solenoid and neither produced 12+ volts when I engaged the brake and had a meter connected. Is my thinking correct?
Don,

It sounds like you may be correct. I answered your PM. It is getting close to my bed time but tomorrow I will look at a schematic and see if anything jumps out at me. I have your schematic you sent me about a year ago.

Bob
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Old 07-26-2009, 06:40 AM   #7
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Don,

First let me warn you that my background is electronics and we draw schematics using different symbols than automotive electrical designers. The schematic for your Diplomat uses automotive conventions which I sometimes find confusing and hard to follow. Here is what I can tell from looking at your schematic.

Many of the relays used in our coaches are the Bosch automotive type. The link I sent you from Radio Shack is a Bosch type relay. They are as common as dirt and come in two main flavors. The coils always are numbered pins 85 and 86. All of them have a set of normally open contacts labeled 30 and 87. These two pins are not connected until power is applied to pins 85 and 86. A variation of the Bosh is called 87A and has a pin labeled 87A. This is a normally closed contact and is connected to pin 30 any time power is NOT applied to the pins 85 and 86. Now here is where the fun starts. Designers can connect these relays together in a manner so that some relays are dependent on the state of other relays. Believe me, relays can become very complex when ganged. I once worked for Northern Telecom where we used large frames of relays controlled by computers to switch telephone signals. We manufactured the equipment by wire wrapping. When one of the assembly line workers would put a wire in the wrong place with hundreds of relays involved it could become a hair pulling event to find.

Here is what I assume by looking at your coach schematic. The exhaust brake solenoid in the lower left corner must be back at the engine and controls air flow to the air cylinder that moves the butterfly valve. The left hand side of that coil is connected to ground which means a +12 volt signal must be applied to the other side for the brake to activate. If you follow that wire, labeled EXH BRAKE SOL, it goes to BOX 2 16614007 in the center of the drawing and connects to pin 30 of one Bosch relay and pins 85 and 87 of another Bosch relay. These two relays are ganged and labeled "ENABLED WHEN throttle closed speed > idle no fuel command". The relay on the left is energized by a signal EXHAUST BRAKE ENABLE coming from either the engine computer or the VIM. That signal only enables the exhaust brake solenoid back at the engine but does not energize it. The signal labeled EXHAUST BRAKE NC connected to pin 87 of that relay is what activates the solenoid back at the engine. That signal appears to come from the VIM. Unless you are using your meter to monitor the wire going back to the exhaust brake solenoid while the exhaust brake is activated you will not measure the +12 volts. I doubt that you were since the coach would be moving down the road and the engine hatch open as well as the bedroom slides. But maybe you had a wire connected and running up to the driver seat and did drive the coach as you monitored. At any rate, don't expect to measure a voltage unless the coach is moving under conditions that allow the exhaust brake to work.

I assume that your exhaust brake is working and your problem is that the brake lights do not come on when the exhaust brake activates while your foot is not on the service brake. This is where the other two relays in the circuit come in to play. Remember that pin 30 of the relay on the left was connected to pin 85 and 87 of the relay on the right. That means that when the exhaust brake is activated the coil of the relay on the right is energized closing its contacts allowing the same +12 volts that activates the exhaust brake solenoid to reach contact 30 of that relay which is connected to pin 87A of the relay just to the left of the relay connected back to the solenoid. If you are not pressing the service brake pedal that relay will be deactivated allowing contact 87A to connect to contact 30 which is connected to your brake lights. If your brake lights are not coming on when the exhaust brake is activated and the service brakes are not applied I would suspect something to be wrong at that relay. The most likely cause is that the factory put the wrong type relay in and it does not have the 87A contact. These relays look almost identical. You could even have one that appears to be correct but is labeled wrong. My first recommendation would be to replace that relay. If that does not fix the problem then look for a wiring error.

I know this was long winded but I don't know any other way to explain what I see on the schematic.

Hope this helps,

Bob
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Old 07-26-2009, 08:50 AM   #8
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Ray, for what it is worth, I had an 06 Cayman and the brake lights came on when the exaust brake was applied. I now have a 06 Endeavor and they do not come on. I am not sure but I think that Monaco changed the procedure about that time and on certain models. I am sure that the brake lights are suppossed to come on with the exaust brake on your coach.
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Old 07-26-2009, 10:44 AM   #9
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Bob, your analysis is great. What schematic are you reviewing and where did you get it? I have only very rudimentary electrical diagrams in my owners manual. I spent about 31 years as an engineer on Navy ships and submarines so I can read same but I have no diagrams. They would be helpful. Thanks. (2007 Endeavor, Cummins 400ISL, Allison 3000MH)

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Old 07-26-2009, 11:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LewF View Post
Bob, your analysis is great. What schematic are you reviewing and where did you get it? I have only very rudimentary electrical diagrams in my owners manual. I spent about 31 years as an engineer on Navy ships and submarines so I can read same but I have no diagrams. They would be helpful. Thanks. (2007 Endeavor, Cummins 400ISL, Allison 3000MH)Lew
I am going just a little
Lew... You know how much work Rob Morgan has done on his website ?? You can find something like this there also!

Good Luck



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Old 07-26-2009, 12:17 PM   #11
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Guys, be extremely careful tapping into either wire of the exhaust brake solenoid. The transmission ECM gives the exhaust brake solenoid the signal to operate. If you apply 12 vdc in any form to that wire you can damage the transmission ECM and that is very costly.

If you go to the brake switch site

http://www.brakeswitch.com/

you should find information about connecting to Monaco coaches. Or give Homer Hawks a call at 888-349-5414.

My 01 Diplomat brake lights come on with the exhaust brake does, and I want folks behind me to know I am slowing. Also I can have the exhaust brake switch turned on AND have the cruise control engaged. I must disengage the CC or tap the brakes before the exhaust will operate.
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LewF View Post
Bob, your analysis is great. What schematic are you reviewing and where did you get it? I have only very rudimentary electrical diagrams in my owners manual. I spent about 31 years as an engineer on Navy ships and submarines so I can read same but I have no diagrams. They would be helpful. Thanks. (2007 Endeavor, Cummins 400ISL, Allison 3000MH)

Lew
Lew,

I see MM has taken care of you. The schematic I was looking at was for Diplomat Don's coach and he emailed it to me because I have a 2006 and he thought the 2005 would close enough to be helpful. I think he obtained it from Monaco. My manual does not have schematics either. The one on Rob's website should be helpful to you.

Bob
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:59 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex View Post
Guys, be extremely careful tapping into either wire of the exhaust brake solenoid. The transmission ECM gives the exhaust brake solenoid the signal to operate. If you apply 12 vdc in any form to that wire you can damage the transmission ECM and that is very costly.

If you go to the brake switch site

http://www.brakeswitch.com/

you should find information about connecting to Monaco coaches. Or give Homer Hawks a call at 888-349-5414.

My 01 Diplomat brake lights come on with the exhaust brake does, and I want folks behind me to know I am slowing. Also I can have the exhaust brake switch turned on AND have the cruise control engaged. I must disengage the CC or tap the brakes before the exhaust will operate.
Rex,

Maybe I did not make it clear, but I am not recommending that Don connect anything to his exhaust brake wires. He has a problem were his brake lights do not work when the exhaust brake is on but the service brakes are not applied. It has been that way since he purchased the coach and we suspect Monaco did something wrong during manufacture. I am recommending that he change out some of the relays to see if that corrects the problem. If that does not fix his problem then I suspect a wiring error from the factory.

Bob
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:49 PM   #14
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Bob....Thanks for the reply. We were out of town for two days. Your explanantion may have hit on my original issue. When I took the coach in for repair of the brake light issue under warranty, the shop electrician actually used my schematics to work on the coach. I know for a fact that he switched the 3 involved relays around to make sure it wasn't a bad relay. Soooooo.....maybe I do have all three that are the same when one should be different. I'll pull the schematics out and look at the descriptions and locations of the relays......

In all honesty.....I'd rather that the brake lights not come on with the exhaust brake, but I'd really like the Brake Switch to work. I've talked this problem through with Homer (from Brake Switch) on a couple of occassions and we couldn't come up with a solution.
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